Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[Okotoks]

Two more bulls that are DSF and triple clean at Y Lazy Y.
COALPIT CREEK LEADER 6TH ET  x4147644 PHA-F TH-F DS-F
YY THE EARL OF DOVER 118U    x4136584 PHA-F TH-F DS-F
<party>

 

[Okotoks]

On the ASA animal search bulls are listed as follows:

Deerpark Improver        DS-C

Deerpark Improver 2nd  DS-F
Deerpark Improver 57  DS-F
IDS Duke of Dublin      DS-F

If you see others, please post.  Are there any that are DS-H on there?

We just sent in several to the lab, and the turn around is maybe less than 2 weeks.  Is DS test cost $20 now?

Here is some from a list I have been keeping, if I did any wrong please let me know as I tried to double check them.
DS Results  Bulls DSF
A & T Captain Obvious DSF
CF Solution X ET DSF
Coalpitt Creek Leader 6th DSF
Deerpark Improver 2 DSF DSF
Deerpark Improver 57 DSF
Deerpark Leader 13th DSF
Diamond Prophecy 21P DSF
Diamond Zulu 3CZ DSF
Dunbeacon Venture DSF
Eionmor Piper 23Z DSF
Herbourne B Manitoba Gus 13Z DSF
IDS Duke of Dublin DSF
JSF Gauge 137W DSF
Lakeside Doc Clark 918 DSF
Lakeside Lo Rider 007 DSF
Lakeside Power play 2P DSF
Leveldale Javelin 535R DSF
Homeplace Touchdown 1209  DSF
Homeplace Wild Side 1215 is DSF.
NPS Durango 774 CBH ET  DSF
RAS Vintage 1119 DSF
SULL GNCC Salute 532R ET DSF
SULL Red Demand 9329 ET DSF
SULL Red Reward 9321 DSF
TEGM Red Advantage 100T DSF
YY The Earl Of Dover 118U DSF

Bulls DSC
Deerpark Improver 3684142 DSC
Homeplace Wild Side 1315 DSC
JJC Wild Side *x4045349 DSC
JSFCapiche 46U DSC
Len Ru T A Leader 3744349 DSC
NPS Improvers Stride 832X, DSC
OCC Jake’s Pride 245B DSC

Females both DSF and DSC
Diamond Xena Susan 21X DSF
Diamond Zinnia Baroness 26Z DSF
Hale’s Royal Rosemary KDR 3995567 DSF
Homeplace Fair Lady 0908  DSF
HUB’s 18 Clementine 0529 x4105752 DSF
HUB’s 18 Princess 0579 x4105765 DSF
JAB Majors Hope M01 x4033353 DSF
Lakeside Royal Fantastic 601S DSC
HUB’s BM Dolly 0404 4088921 DSC

 

[Doc]

On the ASA animal search bulls are listed as follows:

Deerpark Improver        DS-C

Deerpark Improver 2nd  DS-F
Deerpark Improver 57  DS-F
IDS Duke of Dublin      DS-F

If you see others, please post.  Are there any that are DS-H on there?

We just sent in several to the lab, and the turn around is maybe less than 2 weeks.  Is DS test cost $20 now?

Here is some from a list I have been keeping, if I did any wrong please let me know as I tried to double check them.
DS Results  Bulls DSF
A & T Captain Obvious DSF
CF Solution X ET DSF
Coalpitt Creek Leader 6th DSF
Deerpark Improver 2 DSF DSF
Deerpark Improver 57 DSF
Deerpark Leader 13th DSF
Diamond Prophecy 21P DSF
Diamond Zulu 3CZ DSF
Dunbeacon Venture DSF
Eionmor Piper 23Z DSF
Herbourne B Manitoba Gus 13Z DSF
IDS Duke of Dublin DSF
JSF Gauge 137W DSF
Lakeside Doc Clark 918 DSF
Lakeside Lo Rider 007 DSF
Lakeside Power play 2P DSF
Leveldale Javelin 535R DSF
Homeplace Touchdown 1209  DSF
Homeplace Wild Side 1215 is DSF.
NPS Durango 774 CBH ET  DSF
RAS Vintage 1119 DSF
SULL GNCC Salute 532R ET DSF
SULL Red Demand 9329 ET DSF
SULL Red Reward 9321 DSF
TEGM Red Advantage 100T DSF
YY The Earl Of Dover 118U DSF

Bulls DSC
Deerpark Improver 3684142 DSC
Homeplace Wild Side 1315 DSC
JJC Wild Side *x4045349 DSC
JSFCapiche 46U DSC
Len Ru T A Leader 3744349 DSC
NPS Improvers Stride 832X, DSC
OCC Jake’s Pride 245B DSC

Females both DSF and DSC
Diamond Xena Susan 21X DSF
Diamond Zinnia Baroness 26Z DSF
Hale’s Royal Rosemary KDR 3995567 DSF
Homeplace Fair Lady 0908  DSF
HUB’s 18 Clementine 0529 x4105752 DSF
HUB’s 18 Princess 0579 x4105765 DSF
JAB Majors Hope M01 x4033353 DSF
Lakeside Royal Fantastic 601S DSC
HUB’s BM Dolly 0404 4088921 DSC

Here's a few that I have come across :
HS Rodeo Drive - DSF
KL Prime Time Paymaster - DSF
Free K-Kim Hot Commodity - DSF
DF Vegas - DSF
Red Riders Drive - DSF
SULL Right Direction - DSF

SULL Red Blood - DSC
SULL Traveler - DSC

Females
Little Cedar Can't Fool Me - DSF
Little Cedar Augusta PR - DSF

Three bulls that I'm really curious about are :
CF Trump
WHR Sonny
SULL GNCC Asset

 

[Okotoks]

"Three bulls that I'm really curious about are :
CF Trump
WHR Sonny
SULL GNCC Asset"
Asset's dam is DSC, K-KIM MONA LISA 35L ET *4037424 PHA-F TH-F DS-C and his son SULL TRAVELER 9807 ET *4165654 PHA-F TH-F DS-C is also DSC which doesn't mean ASSET is but there is a 50% chance, he actually is one of my favourite SULL bulls

Here is a list the Angus posted for the initial tests for DD. It seems like a good way for breeders to start figuring out how to move forward. Even if a bull is a carrier you may want to identify the free offspring if you like some of his other traits. Are some breeders not putting out the info for fear of losing sales?

http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DD_Update08122013.pdf

 

[knabe]

i'd like to know if trump ever sired a monkey mouth or spastic pareisis calf.

 

[wjmcattle]

I can't believe the uproar this new defect has caused. I understand that genetic defects are a concern for any breed, but as a breeder who tries to be progressive and to produce the best calves possible with each meeting, I refuse to cull an animal that I can manage and use within my operation. Am I concerned about DS? Sure. Enough to throw out my JPJ semen and stop using it? No. I will continue to utilize carriers to make the best cattle I can. To not use the mating that best compliments your cows simply because the resulting offspring has a 50% chance of being a carrier is being slightly ignorant. Now I'm not suggesting using carriers on carriers or that we should select for carriers. With good management practices, carriers are just as profitable and practical in any operation.

 

[knabe]

one has to remember, that these defects are more about bad-mouthing people because of idealism than the defect.


all cattle have defects, just like people. 


these defects are easy to manage. some keep bringing up how hard it was to obtain samples and how people should offer them up for free, how evil people who had cattle that had defects were evil, these people have an agenda to extract revenge.

 

[wjmcattle]

Those who seek revenge for their hatred of "clubby, defected" cattle are fools

 

[oakview]

I have no problem with those that want to "manage" a known defect in their own herds.  Personally, my issue is that if I use a DSC, THC, or PHAC carrier, I will need to test any resulting offspring I sell to other breeders.  I don't want that extra time and expense.  If someone else doesn't mind, that's okay with me.  At present, I will add genetics from only DSF, THF, and PHAF animals.  I am satisfied with the selection of "clean" genetics at my disposal.

In regard to Trump and monkey mouth, etc., there are tons of cattle out there with Trump stacked three deep (or more) in the pedigree and I have not heard of any affected offspring.  I've even had some of those genetics lined up in my own herd and have not had any problems.

 

[RyanChandler]

Tons of cattle stacked w/ Improver and, until recently, never were there any claims of DS.  There's more to it than is being let on. 

 

[oakview]

I'm think it's just a case of more people being made aware of the issues today.  I know of at least 2 herds that had TH calves 30 years ago.  They just didn't know what it was at the time.  I had my first case in the late 90's.  I had no idea what it was, but learned fast.  That's at least 15 years ago.  I had a DS calf about the same time.  Only 1, didn't have a clue what caused it.  I didn't hide it, didn't try to sweep it under the rug, I just absolutely thought it was just one of those things that happens from time to time.  I had 2 calves in the late 70's born without a tail.  It felt like the tail bone was bent under the skin along the back bone.  They were of entirely different backgrounds.  It never once entered my mind that we may have a new genetic defect on our hands.  Every species has an oddball show up from time to time.  The "good" ones make our genetic improvement.  We talk about the "bad" ones on Steer Planet. 

 

[Okotoks]

When we first tested our herd for TH we retained some of the best carrier cows, the plan being to get some THF daughters as replacements. We did get some THF replacement daughters but it is a long process because the odds are that in any given year you have a 25% chance of that. Pretty much means that 50% of their calves will be THC and thus culls. We made a couple of exceptions and kept a THC calf and got the THF replacement from her. It is early days for DS testing but if any carrier females come up I am thinking I will probably cull them from the herd. We don’t sell any carrier animals for breeding stock.  I can see both sides to this argument but selecting around a defect when there are other options is time consuming and expensive. Several people have mentioned that JPJ is carrier but it is not listed on the ASA site. I know there are a couple of DSF sons and a couple of DSC sons but it looks like very few of his offspring have been tested and reported even though a lot are herd bulls. Do AI sires not need to be tested or is it voluntary? I think the fact DS is not usually lethal allowed it to go unnoticed longer but so far I have not been able to find a lot DSC bulls on the ASA site only 13 compared to 45 DSF. It seems a lot more than thsi must have been tested ???

 

[aj]

I think Shorthorns are great for the show ring......even when developing the the crossbred cattle. I think that this is their niche. Its kinda sad that they won't be taken seriously by the main stream beef industry.......because there is such a hole of genetic defects to dig out of. Its sad and a fact. The showring industry big be a bigger niche than todays mainstream beef industry someday. Showring cattle are great cattle.....but I'd hate to eat one.

 

[aj]

I think Cunia is a monkey mouth deal and the spastic deal also.

 

[Doc]

I think Shorthorns are great for the show ring......even when developing the the crossbred cattle. I think that this is their niche. Its kinda sad that they won't be taken seriously by the main stream beef industry.......because there is such a hole of genetic defects to dig out of. Its sad and a fact. The showring industry big be a bigger niche than todays mainstream beef industry someday. Showring cattle are great cattle.....but I'd hate to eat one.

How do Shorthorns have any more defects than a lot of the breeds out there?

 

[Okotoks]

I think Shorthorns are great for the show ring......even when developing the the crossbred cattle. I think that this is their niche. Its kinda sad that they won't be taken seriously by the main stream beef industry.......because there is such a hole of genetic defects to dig out of. Its sad and a fact. The showring industry big be a bigger niche than todays mainstream beef industry someday. Showring cattle are great cattle.....but I'd hate to eat one.

How do Shorthorns have any more defects than a lot of the breeds out there?

They don't, AJ just likes to yank our chain (dog)
The more DNA testing we do the more we will find defects or possibly just genes that are less desirable for certain traits or maybe just traits in some environments. That along with the occasional new mutation it is just going to be something that is ongoing for all breeds of cattle. People are always changing the look and style of livestock and when we do that we are probably selecting for certain mutations that give us the "look" we want. Some of those mutations will be recessive lethal genes. It is probably why more defects show up in the breeds with bigger populations, just more opportunity for that selection to take place and then for it show up when those bloodlines become popular.

 

[aj]

Why are people always changing style and look of cattle. I always was taught that the beef industry's purpose was to put ruminants out on poor quality forage.......and have them turn it into high quality protein for human consumption. I bet 9 out of 10 kids have never heard of this concept. I bet 7 out of 10 parents and 5 out of ten registered cattle breeders have never heard of such a concept. Every breed has defects. Breed organizations handle it differently.......they make their own bed.....and set their own course. Nothing right or wrong about it.

 

[shortyjock89]

Why are people always changing style and look of cattle. I always was taught that the beef industry's purpose was to put ruminants out on poor quality forage.......and have them turn it into high quality protein for human consumption. I bet 9 out of 10 kids have never heard of this concept. I bet 7 out of 10 parents and 5 out of ten registered cattle breeders have never heard of such a concept. Every breed has defects. Breed organizations handle it differently.......they make their own bed.....and set their own course. Nothing right or wrong about it.

That's probably not too far off the mark.  But let's be honest- is the kid learning about the show ring hurting the beef industry? No.


100% of your statistics are made up, and it befits you.  You know nothing of what actual breeders know.  I know Shorthorn breeders right here in the corn belt that could teach you plenty about defect free, foraging, non fad chasing cattle. 


And people change the look and style of cattle because we can.  I'd also say that cattle today are as good as they've ever been.  The 50s? Tiny, poor uddered animals that died before their 5th birthday.  80's? Huge, poor doing cattle that couldn't forage their way out of a wet paper sack. 

  You jack your jaw for 5 years about how all the people who show cattle propagate TH and PHA and are basically Hitler.  And then you show up to a major cattle show with a THC bull.  A freaking bull.  Are you kidding me? Test all the major winners since the advent of TH and PHA testing.  You will find that very few of them will test positive, because the evil show ring people don't use those cattle very much at all anymore. 

My purpose in the beef industry is to win breeding stock shows.  How evil of me.  People have only been doing that for 300 years.  I'd say it's at least as noble a cause as any other.

I know I shouldn't say anything, and I'll probably end up deleting this post...but man you just get my hackles up with some of the utter garbage you spew. Nothing personal, just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[aj]

In my statement......I said that "I'll bet" that 9 out of ten kids......etc.. I did not present that as fact. In my opinion show cattle of today have no enviromental pressure put on them. It is et after et after et......special diets and breeding schedules. This is not conducive to raising cattle that excell in a range condition. That is my opinion. It is my goal to be defect free. I figured I spent between 9 and 10 grand on testing since it has become available. Alot of people don't like to hear the truth. If you don't want my opinion on here you need to start impeachment procedings I guess.

 

[wjmcattle]

Why are people always changing style and look of cattle. I always was taught that the beef industry's purpose was to put ruminants out on poor quality forage.......and have them turn it into high quality protein for human consumption. I bet 9 out of 10 kids have never heard of this concept. I bet 7 out of 10 parents and 5 out of ten registered cattle breeders have never heard of such a concept. Every breed has defects. Breed organizations handle it differently.......they make their own bed.....and set their own course. Nothing right or wrong about it.

That's probably not too far off the mark.  But let's be honest- is the kid learning about the show ring hurting the beef industry? No.


100% of your statistics are made up, and it befits you.  You know nothing of what actual breeders know.  I know Shorthorn breeders right here in the corn belt that could teach you plenty about defect free, foraging, non fad chasing cattle. 


And people change the look and style of cattle because we can.  I'd also say that cattle today are as good as they've ever been.  The 50s? Tiny, poor uddered animals that died before their 5th birthday.  80's? Huge, poor doing cattle that couldn't forage their way out of a wet paper sack. 

  You jack your jaw for 5 years about how all the people who show cattle propagate TH and PHA and are basically Hitler.  And then you show up to a major cattle show with a THC bull.  A freaking bull.  Are you kidding me? Test all the major winners since the advent of TH and PHA testing.  You will find that very few of them will test positive, because the evil show ring people don't use those cattle very much at all anymore. 

My purpose in the beef industry is to win breeding stock shows.  How evil of me.  People have only been doing that for 300 years.  I'd say it's at least as noble a cause as any other.

I know I shouldn't say anything, and I'll probably end up deleting this post...but man you just get my hackles up with some of the utter garbage you spew. Nothing personal, just rubs me the wrong way.

Thank You for saying what everyone was thinking