Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

[garybob]

Theres no push for it here bc those claiming 100% shorthorn have nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose.

Bump!

 

[DLD]

Years ago (30 something, I guess) cattle were routinely "blood typed" for breed.  I don't know that there was a way to say that a sample was part Shorthorn and part Maine.  But there were particular traits or groups of trait's in blood samples used to determine if an animal's "blood type" was typical and/or acceptable to a particular breed.  For example, it was fairly common (here in OK at least) to blood type Angus show steers - and it was common knowledge that calves sired by at least one particular Maine bull would consistently blood type "typical" Angus.  At that time a commonly held theory (at least) was that there wasn't much use in trying to blood type Shorthorns because their origins were so similar to Maines that there wasn't much difference in their blood types.  Now days, you never hear the term "blood type" in reference to a particular breed.  I understand that parental verification is much easier and more common now, but it seems to me there could still be value in the blood type system - unless it's since been proven too inaccurate?

On the subject of black Shorthorns - I never expected the associations to promote the concept, but I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't tried to start their own breed, a la black Herefords.  Not to say that I'm a black Hereford fan - from what little bit of research I've done on it, it looks like a pyramid scheme with cows. No (or at least very little) breeding up to registered black Herefords using the Hereford and Angus genetics of your choice, you have to buy them from the handful of already established herds.  With a little more open approach, it could maybe be a niche to be filled... But like black Herefords, it's very doubtful it would ever be more than just a small niche.

 

[justintime]

JIT. I am reminded of a wonderful conversation I had in Scotland with Donald and Diana McGillvary who owned the famed Calrossie Shorthorn herd. When I asked them if there were any Shorthorns left in Scotland that were 100% from the old Scottish lines, Donald replied " I certainly hope not".

I think some of these genetics pictured below, from over that way, are more appealing to me than the Shorthorns they have over there now. It seems to me they have turned the Shorthorn Breed into a terminal breed to compete against the Charolais and Limousine .

I agree that some of the Shorthorns in the UK today are bigger framed than we would like here now, but there are also some excellent cattle there. I saw many that would work well here. Donald McGillvary went on to explain what he meant, and said that breeders in that era lost sight of what they were actually producing which was beef animals and they lost favor with the packing industry and as a result of this, the breed came very close to becoming extinct. The Shorthorn breed was placed on the British listing of breeds at risk. The British beef industry demands different types of cattle than we do in either Canada or the US. They have used lots and lots of European and double muslced breeds and they now are going back to using British breeds on these cattle to add some easier fleshing ability, and docility. Today the Shorthorn breed in Britain is one of the fastest growing breeds.
I can remember our own cow herd here when I was growing up, when we had a considerable amount of Scottish breeding in it. My dad had used a couple sons of Bapton Constructor, a son of Louada Rothes King as well as a couple other bulls steeped in Scottish blood. Our steers were being discounted at the packing plants because they had too much fat and too little muscle. We started blue tagging all our calves which was a government program where a producer could get carcass data on all the cattle with the blue ear tag. It did not take us long to figure out what bloodlines were the problems.

 

[caledon101]

This is very interesting....and educational.
So,Shorthorns in both the USA and the UK infused genetics from outside of the breed to modify the end product and move forward successfully? Did the association in the UK afford any % advantage to the outside breeds being used?....similar to what happened in the USA with Maine Anjou?

 

[caledon101]

On the subject of black Shorthorns - I never expected the associations to promote the concept, but I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't tried to start their own breed, a la black Herefords.  Not to say that I'm a black Hereford fan - from what little bit of research I've done on it, it looks like a pyramid scheme with cows. No (or at least very little) breeding up to registered black Herefords using the Hereford and Angus genetics of your choice, you have to buy them from the handful of already established herds.  With a little more open approach, it could maybe be a niche to be filled... But like black Herefords, it's very doubtful it would ever be more than just a small niche.

I have to agree. There wouldn't be enough Shorthorns or Shorthon producers in Canada to make a "black Short" anything more than a niche or passing fad. With Shorthorn Plus and Durham Red options available in the USA I'm not sure it would get any traction but it wouldn't surprise me if it did...especially in the East.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

This is very interesting....and educational.
So,Shorthorns in both the USA and the UK infused genetics from outside of the breed to modify the end product and move forward successfully? Did the association in the UK afford any % advantage to the outside breeds being used?....similar to what happened in the USA with Maine Anjou?

At my limited knowledge, this fashion or shortcuts for move the breed forward on that time business requeriments let almost all countries to use Maine or Lincoln Red breeds. Maines were primary used on North America and UK. LIncoln Red were used massively here in South America, as result we will not found animals here that not show and trace at least a couple ancestors to a Lincoln bull. In Argentina and Uruguay Maines were not used at that time, but on last two decades some appendix (asterisk) bulls had semen imported to these countries. In Brasil two or three herds used Maines on some perventage, but all breeders kept their own Lincoln Red bull or semen.

The infusion of Maines were the salvation for Shorthorn in UK. Very few animals were left without Maine infusion, the mayority of these ones are from Dairy line or based on dairy lines. Some years ago I did a long and extensive search for Maine free animals on there and got no more than a dozen females.

Talking with some breeders I saw that a lack pedigree knowledge is widely spread on that country, with many breeders explaining that your herd are pure or 100% pure (no MAine) but at end they show many North American appendix genetics on background. Is very interest see on al countries that pedigree breeders not check accuratelly the animals ancestors and believe blindly on your herd book rules...isn't wrong....but a guy that call himself as pedigree breeder could at least check the animals line on original country from where it was imported.

With this new rules - not so new as well - that so UK as well as US give to the breeders the option to not inform that animals are blood % , is very important check online search pedigrees on original herd books.

 

[EaglesNest]

Theres no push for it here bc those claiming 100% shorthorn have nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose.

Bump!

Bump!  (clapping)

 

[comercialfarmer]

Just curious.....has this subject ever been discussed or raised in North America?? If there is any history to share on this I would enjoy hearing it.
Some non-black breeds with great history and tradition have eliminated colour bias and some have not.

I've generally noted that when someone makes a defensive statement multiple times without actually being acused of said offense, their tends to be more to the story.

Since you originated the thread on said topic, created a new phrase "eliminated color bias" (which makes my politically correct radar peg full tilt, and if you don't know where political correctness originated- look up USSR and re-education camps i.e making someone politically correct), and follow up with questions that seem to point out the favorable instances of infusion of foreign genetics into the herd, it would make one wonder if there isn't an angle here, but I'm just an old farm boy.  Oh, you only said 3 or 4 times, you aren't arguing for it.  See first paragraph.


Just to be upfront, I asked the same thing.  But i also thought there would be niche for homo black bulls to compete with angus, mostly because of the black premium market that is present, and at the same time, a lot of angus are becoming terminal.  Black steers for market and yet retainable heifers with a bit of a heterosis kick back on angus.

To me, angus would be more consistent to short horn than a lot of maines.  SH and An are considered British, Maine is continental?  Just to throw that in the mix for the pro-affirmative action crowd.

Saying that, I'm not for further mongrelization or dilution of the breed.

Here is where i have further issues with logic in the past regarding maine...
If a breed has to have infusion of another breed to "save" it, you didn't really save it anyway.  If generation 2, 3, or 4..... doesn't look like or perform like generation 1, then you don't really have generation 1 breed cattle.  You have a cross of varying degrees.  You have a cross.  And I would then say, that you should have more performance because of heterosis.  But will the next guy?  Is it sustainable?  If so, then your NEW breed maybe better.  But why shouldn't an angus producer just not use the infused maine genetics to create their own cross?

Most every commercial producer should have an F1 cow and a terminal bull.  And again, I used to think black F1's would be beneficial.  Now I don't.  I think red angus are catching on.  Not because of color, but because of quality.  I think SH has some genetics in places that would out produce the reds or at least compliment them very well.  My point is that the end producer should have the heterosis, not the seed stock guys.  And i think good red is selling just as good as qualty black now.

If angus made black great by advertising, why can't this breed do the same?  If angus is just better on the whole, then changing yours to black won't alter anything. 

If it is the terminal premium, a go back to create your own, or b let truly terminal breeds have it and just focus on what your good at- mama cow genetics.  Last i looked, there are about 30ish cows to every bull in most pastures anyway.  I'd rather have that market.

Let that sink in for a minute.

But then again im tired so none of this may make sense.  (thumbsup)

 

[r.n.reed]

Excellent post CF,I strongly agree  with your point of the seedstock producer providing his customers the opportunity to achieve the maximum amount of heterosis.Well said. (clapping)

 

[RyanChandler]

Just an excellent post, CF.

  "Most every commercial producer should have an F1 cow and a terminal bull."  Love it!

 

[caledon101]

Just curious.....has this subject ever been discussed or raised in North America?? If there is any history to share on this I would enjoy hearing it.
Some non-black breeds with great history and tradition have eliminated colour bias and some have not.

I've generally noted that when someone makes a defensive statement multiple times without actually being acused of said offense, their tends to be more to the story.

Since you originated the thread on said topic, created a new phrase "eliminated color bias" (which makes my politically correct radar peg full tilt, and if you don't know where political correctness originated- look up USSR and re-education camps i.e making someone politically correct), and follow up with questions that seem to point out the favorable instances of infusion of foreign genetics into the herd, it would make one wonder if there isn't an angle here, but I'm just an old farm boy.  Oh, you only said 3 or 4 times, you aren't arguing for it.  See first paragraph.


Just to be upfront, I asked the same thing.  But i also thought there would be niche for homo black bulls to compete with angus, mostly because of the black premium market that is present, and at the same time, a lot of angus are becoming terminal.  Black steers for market and yet retainable heifers with a bit of a heterosis kick back on angus.

To me, angus would be more consistent to short horn than a lot of maines.  SH and An are considered British, Maine is continental?  Just to throw that in the mix for the pro-affirmative action crowd.

Saying that, I'm not for further mongrelization or dilution of the breed.

Here is where i have further issues with logic in the past regarding maine...
If a breed has to have infusion of another breed to "save" it, you didn't really save it anyway.  If generation 2, 3, or 4..... doesn't look like or perform like generation 1, then you don't really have generation 1 breed cattle.  You have a cross of varying degrees.  You have a cross.  And I would then say, that you should have more performance because of heterosis.  But will the next guy?  Is it sustainable?  If so, then your NEW breed maybe better.  But why shouldn't an angus producer just not use the infused maine genetics to create their own cross?

Most every commercial producer should have an F1 cow and a terminal bull.  And again, I used to think black F1's would be beneficial.  Now I don't.  I think red angus are catching on.  Not because of color, but because of quality.  I think SH has some genetics in places that would out produce the reds or at least compliment them very well.  My point is that the end producer should have the heterosis, not the seed stock guys.  And i think good red is selling just as good as qualty black now.

If angus made black great by advertising, why can't this breed do the same?  If angus is just better on the whole, then changing yours to black won't alter anything. 

If it is the terminal premium, a go back to create your own, or b let truly terminal breeds have it and just focus on what your good at- mama cow genetics.  Last i looked, there are about 30ish cows to every bull in most pastures anyway.  I'd rather have that market.

Let that sink in for a minute.

But then again im tired so none of this may make sense.  (thumbsup)

USSR? Re-education camps? Seriously?
If I felt I needed to be "politically correct" as you point out, then I certainly wouldn't have dared to even post the question. And, that's precisely what it was....a "question". A simple question relating to hair colour and, it was without ulterior motives....it was not a communist plot.

I assumed that this forum was a place for open minded, progressive producers to exchange ideas, information, facts and personal livestock related experiences; not a vehicle to police them.

If I may be "politically correct", The USSR ceased existence in 1991. The camps are probably closed....unless they've converted them into Tim Horton camps for kids. That'd be nice.

"Mamma Cow"?....is there any other kind of cow??

Comrade, I disagree, you are not tired; you are exhausted.

 

[comercialfarmer]

1. So you do or don't agree with the origination of the term, politically correct?  Is political correctness truly the popular opinion?  Or was it designed to limit speech, change meanings of terms, demonize established norms and alter opinion.  I don't like your use of the term bias.

2.  Red/white is a breed characteristic, yes or no?

3.  There are or there are not full blood black shorthorns in the registry?

4.  I gave several supporting arguments for and against.  Where are yours?

5.  I openly admit to having black crossed shorthorns.  Do you or do you have an economic interest in such?  If i have black crossed shorthorns, i guess i was opened minded enough to breed them....  if i replied, i guess I'm open minded enough to discuss it.

6.  Never said you should or should not breed them yourself for your use or anyone elses.

7.  Is having to give support to your position no longer an open discussion?

8.  Can you point to where i have policed your thread (limiting your ability to contribute)  Or  have I questioned your motives for starting it and not listing your own thoughts that you have to defend, and questioned the multiple times of stating your just on the fence.  If your so on the fence, give us with the reasons for your pondering. 

9.  Did you ask for opinions for and against?  Or was that part not to be taken seriously?


The association is due to the word usage.  "Colour bias" is your term, not mine.  It is in line with trying to win the argument not on merit of facts, but by changing terms and definitions being used.  Instead of breed character, now it is "color basis".  How?  Where are the black shorthorns that are being unfairly biased against?  I hope they can get a grievence filed.

But you are correct, I used the term mama cow.  It makes the premise of all my arguments false... You win, unless I can find supporting documentation of its usage.  <cowboy>

Have a new baby, so yes I am exhausted.  But it doesn't appear my comments are off target, if they are, you should be able to easily disassemble them. 

 

[caledon101]

Best definition I could find: Political correctness is the alteration of language to redress real or alleged injustices and discrimination or to avoid offense.
And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??

Hey, CF....not trying to be confrontational towards you! 
And yes, I know what it's like to have a new baby in the house.....been there, done that and it was the best thing in the world but as you know, you never sleep the same from the day they come home from the hospital. The fact you aren't getting your sleep means you are a good husband and a caring Dad!

Never heard of a Black Purebred Shorthorn.....hence my original question. Wasn't aware of any previous efforts both here and abroad to develop the concept.

Wasn't taking a position for the concept...or against. I was trying to learn of any possible history surrounding this.

IMO, to include a reference excluding or reducing % values in the By-Laws based on hair coat colour would qualify as a "bias". Every college professor in the world keeps telling us it's only hair colour; it has no economic value and, once the hide is off you can't tell what colour the animal was.

I have heard the Mamma Cow reference many times before...just kidding with you on that!

Have a super day.

 

[OH Breeder]

Best definition I could find: Political correctness is the alteration of language to redress real or alleged injustices and discrimination or to avoid offense.
And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??

Hey, CF....not trying to be confrontational towards you! 
And yes, I know what it's like to have a new baby in the house.....been there, done that and it was the best thing in the world but as you know, you never sleep the same from the day they come home from the hospital. The fact you aren't getting your sleep means you are a good husband and a caring Dad!

Never heard of a Black Purebred Shorthorn.....hence my original question. Wasn't aware of any previous efforts both here and abroad to develop the concept.

Wasn't taking a position for the concept...or against. I was trying to learn of any possible history surrounding this.

IMO, to include a reference excluding or reducing % values in the By-Laws based on hair coat colour would qualify as a "bias". Every college professor in the world keeps telling us it's only hair colour; it has no economic value and, once the hide is off you can't tell what colour the animal was.

I have heard the Mamma Cow reference many times before...just kidding with you on that!

Have a super day.

I know of lots of cows but I have had a few never become a momma. So do I call aged heifer without child?  . Jk

 

[caledon101]

I'd call her a freezer order....but that's just my opinion.

 

[knabe]

Best definition I could find: Political correctness is the alteration of language to redress real or alleged injustices and discrimination or to avoid offense.

in practice, it actually it means the opposite. 

political correctness is used to create a class of society that is professionally offended to redistribute wealth, create division, agitation and a perceived need for community organizer employment and over valuing contribution to society through excessive compensation, create departments of study and management in all aspects of society to eliminate and persecute diversity.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

As far as chasing a black hide for Shorties.......for the short run it's to late. it would take 20 years to get some good purebred black shorties. Long term maybe. There may be more emphasis for lighter colored cattle for heat reasons.......down the road.: PROPHETIC WORDS-the weather changes and sustained drauths are here-and AINT going away.I hate to see the damage being done-but some cattle are going to have to survive a pretty brutal existance in what "was" cattle country O0

 

[aj]

One good thing about the purebred Show Shorthorns.........there is a significantly higher death loss during the partuition process. This kills off receipt cows,reduces, cattle numbers and then drives up cattle prices.

 

[caledon101]

One good thing about the purebred Show Shorthorns.........there is a significantly higher death loss during the partuition process. This kills off receipt cows,reduces, cattle numbers and then drives up cattle prices.

Here's a 5 year old cow that won every show in sight as a calf and went on to become an ideal, trouble free cow. That's her 5 month old Swagger bull calf at side. No creep and weighed 755 at exactly 6 months of age.
The cow?....a Byland Gold Spear out of an Agribition winning heifer calf from Horseshoe Creek in SK....a Trump based female.
So....a show female that went on to produce just great....and, out of a show female that did the same.

But...I don't totally disagree with you AJ.....too many calving issues within the breed right now. It's a concern as we see more females being produced that are coarse muscled and smaller framed than they should be.
Fudging birth dates is not a remedy to make up for poor WPDA. I have seen too many calves selling that really make me doubt their actual birth dates.

 

[aj]

In my opinion the wpda is such a joke. It is an indicator or nothing but cow size. If you want 2,000 pound cows.....use the wpda.....if not.....burn it....nuke it.....send it to Mars in a space ship. It has nothing to do with profitability in the beef industry.