Shorthorn calving ease issues or not?

[jaimiediamond]

Wow, if I keep misquoting bloodlines nobody is going to believe me. This is getting bad. Maybe I shouldn't be posting so late at night. Haha. Anyways, I have had mixed results. Rose T90 does go back to Len Ru TA Leader and he I believe goes back to Deerpark breeding also. The CE and MCE are about the same on Leader and 57. I personally have seen a number of 120 lb calves in the last few years out of similar bloodlines. Mysteriously, a lot of them have been backwards also. I don't know if their is a correlation between backwards and very large calves or if both are genetic. The cows that are having these calves are hitting the road and we aren't using the bulls that anymore either. I do believe that calving ease and birthweight are too completely different things but they both must come together at a good ratio. The maternal calving ease is really what I am trying to judge my cows by. What are their daughters doing and have they calved unassisted for their first calf. This is my first year having a lot of calves out of a Bloodstone son by Byland Cindy Beauty. My past years averages have been around 88-92 on all calves including the big ones. This year they are closer to 100. Had a Solution and Bloodstone heifer that were both bred to a black angus in the top 1% for calving ease and top 2% for bw. One of them died because the heifer calf was 96 lbs and the other had a backwards 95 lb calf that we cut out. If nobody else is having issues like this then I am feeling pretty left out about now...

JTM
Dont feel left out. I cant believe this is even a topic" Rodeo X Trump and t- 90 are calving ease??!! But hey it's working at Horseshoe??
By now the knee pads have worn out folks... please give it a rest ... everyone of "the shorthorn world"   is looking for new stuff too, they are not going to buy from you cuz you said something nice about the "blood line' - the who of who of shorthorn is looking for new blood too.   Please stop it.
If you want to continue to win then use on mature shorthorn  bloodlines .

I find it interesting that so many conclusions were leapt at without ever stopping to think about why we jumped there.  I have reread this whole thread and all I can say is JIT did not say that those were calving ease lines at any point he just stated that he had some success with bulls of those lines who had proven themselves to be calving ease options in his program.  That does not mean that JIT was promoting every Trump, or Rodeo Drive descended animal as a calving ease option it just means that with the bulls he listed he had success.

I might point out has anyone seen JIT bash a program on this forum? I can't say the same for you sue perhaps we should go back to the good old days where "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" was preached to us, since in reality you are quick to judge those who march to a different drum.  You are also quick to put words in other peoples mouths, an example would be this.

 

[rarebirdz]

Ce is something that shape of the animals involved really represents the outcomesof calvin season pelvic shouldersn head. This is way makes my seasons less streasful

 

[Shorthorns4us]

So is this a good time to bring up the new issue of Shorthorn Country that I received last night with the herd sire issue?  That is a great issue-- lots of farms advertising that I didn't even know were out there-- Oakview- like the picture of your bull-- no fuss and showing him in his working clothes-- I hope you won't be offended, but I think he would be awesome on some black angus to try for some blue roans and he looks to put some moderation on a group of calves.
I would like to also comment on a couple of the articles in the Shorthorn Country--about the EPD's and showring.  I am glad that those board members are talking about this and letting the world know this is not acceptable.
EF

 

[linnettejane]

So is this a good time to bring up the new issue of Shorthorn Country that I received last night with the herd sire issue?  That is a great issue-- lots of farms advertising that I didn't even know were out there-- Oakview- like the picture of your bull-- no fuss and showing him in his working clothes-- I hope you won't be offended, but I think he would be awesome on some black angus to try for some blue roans and he looks to put some moderation on a group of calves.
I would like to also comment on a couple of the articles in the Shorthorn Country--about the EPD's and showring.  I am glad that those board members are talking about this and letting the world know this is not acceptable.
EF

i was starting to wonder when it was coming....shorthorn country that is...ive been anxiously awaiting its arrival!

 

[JTM]

Sue and Okotoks, I started this thread because I have seen JIT post several times that he has not had any calving issues with Trump x Rodeo Drive genetics. I was just interested to see how many people would come out and say what they are dealing with when it comes to show genetics. JIT leads me to believe that his other breeding is either large enough to have 110 lb + calves all of the time like TGCC said or that his base herd is moderate but has better than average pelvic measurements. I just want to continue to learn and help others on this board continue to learn about what genetics are working in certain performance areas and what genetics aren't. It may be more of a "milk" type subject instead of "steak" but we all have to start somewhere.
JIT, you do have really nice looking cattle from what I see. I am interested in hearing what kind of birthweights you have been getting with the genetics you have mentioned. When you say calving ease, do you mean "breed to a 1000 lb replacement heifer calving ease" or just that the bulls had unassisted calves from mature cows? I'm interested in a little more detail if your willing to share. Thanks a lot.

Please don't anyone mislead what I have said. Okotoks is exactly right when he says that all I am saying is that there some sires from these bloodlines that do turn out to be very easy calving sires. I waited to reply to JTM, because I was going to be in a meeting last night with Bill Huber and I wanted to ask him again about the Neutron bull ( a Trump grand son) that calved so easily in my herd as well as in his. Bill said that they missed weighing a few calves by him, b ut he said that he did not remember a calf out of a heifer that weighed over 85 lbs... and that all were born unassisted. That is exactly the results we had here as well. Looking back at the two calf crops we had from Neutron, almost all the calves were born with BWs of 80 to 85 lbs. These weights are not necessarily small for heifers, but they were born extremely easily. Neutron had a BW of 88 lbs( from a cow)  and as he developed I was very impressed with his shoulder shape and his head shape and it was becaue of these traits that I decided that he was a good candidate to use on our heifers. These traits probably played a bigger role in my decision to use him on my heifers than his own BW or his pedigree. He turned out to be an exceptional good choice for heifers. The GR Rodeo bull was very similar with a small head and well laid in shoulders. I don't think we ever ad a calf over 90 lbs from him and ev ery calf was born unassisted, from heifers and cows. . All I am saying is that every once in awhile some sires appear from some of these bloodlines that breed totally differengt from most others from this lineage. It appears that because I said I have used a couple of easy calving sons of RD or Trump that some people read this as my saying that ALL RD OR TRUMP SONS have no calving issues . That is simply NOT what I am saying at all.  

JIT, thanks for the clarification. I don't have any problem believing that some of those genetics have been better than others when it comes to calving ease and birthweights. I just believe that one of us are seing either the exception or the rule. I think you may be seeing the exception, which is a very good thing for you. Especially if you can get all of the good traits out of a bloodline. That is what any breeeder would strive for. I think the question for a lot of rookie breeders is, "is this what I can expect?" My personal opinion is no. Now since we have a pretty good thread talking about this issue, everyone can make their own judgment based on the information they gather. Thanks again for the reply and the discussion.

 

[JTM]

Wow, if I keep misquoting bloodlines nobody is going to believe me. This is getting bad. Maybe I shouldn't be posting so late at night. Haha. Anyways, I have had mixed results. Rose T90 does go back to Len Ru TA Leader and he I believe goes back to Deerpark breeding also. The CE and MCE are about the same on Leader and 57. I personally have seen a number of 120 lb calves in the last few years out of similar bloodlines. Mysteriously, a lot of them have been backwards also. I don't know if their is a correlation between backwards and very large calves or if both are genetic. The cows that are having these calves are hitting the road and we aren't using the bulls that anymore either. I do believe that calving ease and birthweight are too completely different things but they both must come together at a good ratio. The maternal calving ease is really what I am trying to judge my cows by. What are their daughters doing and have they calved unassisted for their first calf. This is my first year having a lot of calves out of a Bloodstone son by Byland Cindy Beauty. My past years averages have been around 88-92 on all calves including the big ones. This year they are closer to 100. Had a Solution and Bloodstone heifer that were both bred to a black angus in the top 1% for calving ease and top 2% for bw. One of them died because the heifer calf was 96 lbs and the other had a backwards 95 lb calf that we cut out. If nobody else is having issues like this then I am feeling pretty left out about now...

JTM
Dont feel left out. I cant believe this is even a topic" Rodeo X Trump and t- 90 are calving ease??!! But hey it's working at Horseshoe??
By now the knee pads have worn out folks... please give it a rest ... everyone of "the shorthorn world"   is looking for new stuff too, they are not going to buy from you cuz you said something nice about the "blood line' - the who of who of shorthorn is looking for new blood too.   Please stop it.
If you want to continue to win then use on mature shorthorn  bloodlines .

I find it interesting that so many conclusions were leapt at without ever stopping to think about why we jumped there.  I have reread this whole thread and all I can say is JIT did not say that those were calving ease lines at any point he just stated that he had some success with bulls of those lines who had proven themselves to be calving ease options in his program.  That does not mean that JIT was promoting every Trump, or Rodeo Drive descended animal as a calving ease option it just means that with the bulls he listed he had success.

I might point out has anyone seen JIT bash a program on this forum? I can't say the same for you sue perhaps we should go back to the good old days where "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" was preached to us, since in reality you are quick to judge those who march to a different drum.  You are also quick to put words in other peoples mouths, an example would be this.

Jaime, I took that post as if it was for me. I think there are just some things that have not been clarified in a way that makes everything clear. Look at my latest reply to JIT. Is his experience the exception or the rule? This is the question that needs to be answered by everyone who wants to learn and improve things concerning this issue. I'm definitely not bashing anyone's program because if I was, I would be bashing mine the most...
Oakview, I think Jakes Proud Jazz is definitely a tool that people can use to bring down birthweights. We have been using him for several years now and this year we have tried Captain Obvious, Capiche, and 329. We are breeding them on Trump genetics and are hoping for better calving ease and birthweights along with fancy calves and good cows. My JPJ first calf heifers have performed perfectly out of show genetic females this year.
Shorthorns4Us, I agree with your comment on the board members. I am also excited to see the issue when it gets here.

 

[Endless Meadows]

I can't help to give my opinion on the topic.  Do shorthorns have a calving ease problem...yes, yes, and no.  There certainly have been and are bulls/bloodlines that are not always the easiest calving and have built up that reputation in any breed.  The biggest problem IMO is that the perception exists with commercial producers that all shorthorns have calving ease problems.  Right or wrong, perception becomes reality when those people are looking for cattle.  I think there has been a lot of work done by breeders to correct some of these issues and there is still some ground to be made up.

It has been eluded to time and time again that none of the sons of bull "X" are calving ease and all of the sons of bull "Y" should be.  I would just offer up the following to consider.  Although bloodlines can be somewhat reliable in predicting how cattle will perform, don't forget that everything will fall within a standard bell shaped curve.  There will always be those that lie outside of the first standard deviation, a couple outside the second, and even some past the third and others.  The more a bloodline is used, statistics would hint that the more "outliers" will be identified, good or bad.

Just take for example the following FULL brothers:  Byland Big Bud  CE -2.2  BW 4.5 and Byland Pattern CE 9.2  BW  -2.1, and one Angus example I can think of TC Stockman CED -1  BW  8.4  and TC Rancher  CED 10.0  BW -.5  Just keep in mind those are comparisons between full brothers.  There can be a lot of variation within a breed, even more than between breeds at times. 

 

[nate53]

Full sib comparisons will be highly variable even in the same enviroment, especially when you look in the pedigree and find animals mated to each other that aren't similiar in their makeup.  If you expect consistency you need to find an animal that has been bred like to like for generations.  This could be a linebred program or just a program that breed's like to like that are totally unrelated.  If you don't breed like to like there will be huge swings in epd.s and actuals just like the examples in the previous posts.  JMO

 

[r.n.reed]

I agree with you nate53!

 

[rarebirdz]

Witthh the. Full. Sibling  genettic potency in different. Structure really is a grreat way to avoid ce. Problems

 

[justintime]

Nate, I agree with you 100%. That is my pointy exactly. I was trying to say that you can get variations in calving ease ( in this case) between similar bred sires. When I said that I have used a couple of RD sons  as well as a grandson of Trump that were extremely easy calving sires, I was told by some, that this could not happen because of the genetics involved. To be very honest, I have only used 1 other sire who consistently has calved as easily as any of the 3 bulls I mentioned, and he was a full Irish bull we bred named HC Mist's Return 13R. All I have been trying to say, is that you cannot put every animal from the same bloodline in the same basket. There can be wide variations between similarly bred animals. In the same context, I have seen a few Trump females that are easy fleshing and stay fat on grass.One that comes to mind to me is Shady Lane's Trump daughter that is almost too easy fleshing, as she is too fat most of the time. There are many others as well. They are many others that are not!

 

[JTM]

Endless Meadows, Nate53, and R.N. Reed,
This is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for and wanting to learn. It makes good sense to me. The like to like I assume you are referring to calving ease to calving ease and similar structure and frame. Thanks for posting and adding to the discussion!

 

[sue]

Again .... what did i miss Rodeo drive was born in 1987. who can sell a son of rd in 2011???

 

[Okotoks]

Again .... what did i miss Rodeo drive was born in 1987. who can sell a son of rd in 2011???

I'm sure Waukaru would be happy to sell you WAUKARU CONCOURSE 1162 *x4176125 a Rodeo Drive son born April 12, 2011.  BW 94lbs.

 

[Doc]

Again .... what did i miss Rodeo drive was born in 1987. who can sell a son of rd in 2011???

What the heck does that have to do with it?? If he is good enough , I guarantee there will be several people ready to buy. I mean if they are the right type , what difference does it make? If we are going on the evolution chart , then RD should be ahead of say Ldr 21st or some of these others that people are digging out of their tanks.  I mean look at the RD dtr that Little Cedar has in their ad. I would take a field full of them & not care when their sire was born.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Doc, I hope your budget allows a field full of those cattle. Not me. My God people, Rodeo Drive? Really? Bad carcass, hard doing. Has the Wakaru bull sold yet? Nice folks for sure but come on. Rodeo Drive?! That makes me want to puke, Sorry. Send them to Ireland. Goodness people. What is the definition of insanity?

 

[Doc]

Doc, I hope your budget allows a field full of those cattle. Not me. My God people, Rodeo Drive? Really? Bad carcass, hard doing. Has the Wakaru bull sold yet? Nice folks for sure but come on. Rodeo Drive?! That makes me want to puke, Sorry. Send them to Ireland. Goodness people. What is the definition of insanity?

I don't know that he is bad carcass. TGC, I know that you don't have anything good to say about one that is anything unless it's solid red, polled & a 4 to 5 frame. Go ahead & puke. I'd take that cow in a heart beat & I guarantee you that I could make money with her. Oh, wait a minute , I think that is supposed to be a bad thing according to some people. Give it a rest, you're not going to change people to your kind & they aren't going to change you to theirs.

 

[nate53]

Endless Meadows, Nate53, and R.N. Reed,
This is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for and wanting to learn. It makes good sense to me. The like to like I assume you are referring to calving ease to calving ease and similar structure and frame. Thanks for posting and adding to the discussion!

Yes, The like to like breeding can be with anything (structure, bw., CE, MCE, mature size, growth, etc.).  The like to like breeding could just be for calving ease and structure but why stop there, why not do it all (calving ease both maternal and direct, low bw., moderate mature size or whatever size you want, docility, feet and soundness, stayability, etc.).   Basically find your ideal animal and mate it to another ideal animal and you do this for enough generations and your cookie cutter herd develops, unless of course you don't want to replicate your best cows?  Everybody seems to want more consistencey, and predictablity,  wether they have frame 3 cows or frame 8 cows.    

I stumbled upon this breeding approach several years ago visiting an black angus breeder in Kansas, it is very logical and it does work.  We went from calving our heifers in a barn and checking them 3 times a night and pulling 10% of them to calving them out on pasture and checking on them twice per day, with virtually no problems at all.

Ideally you would find a breeder that has been using this approach for years and purchase a bull or semen.   ;D

 

[Waukaru]

Doc, I hope your budget allows a field full of those cattle. Not me. My God people, Rodeo Drive? Really? Bad carcass, hard doing. Has the Wakaru bull sold yet? Nice folks for sure but come on. Rodeo Drive?! That makes me want to puke, Sorry. Send them to Ireland. Goodness people. What is the definition of insanity?

Really Brock?  You are critical that I used a bull that ranks in the top 1% of the breed for marbling and 25% for REA.  I am amazed that you can spout off the way you do.  Stop by in Rensselaer and after going through the cow herd then you can be critical.  Remember, these cows are feeding two families right now, and have since 1902, we can't be that wrong.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Doc, I hope your budget allows a field full of those cattle. Not me. My God people, Rodeo Drive? Really? Bad carcass, hard doing. Has the Wakaru bull sold yet? Nice folks for sure but come on. Rodeo Drive?! That makes me want to puke, Sorry. Send them to Ireland. Goodness people. What is the definition of insanity?

Really Brock?   You are critical that I used a bull that ranks in the top 1% of the breed for marbling and 25% for REA.   I am amazed that you can spout off the way you do.  Stop by in Rensselaer and after going through the cow herd then you can be critical.  Remember, these cows are feeding two families right now, and have since 1902, we can't be that wrong.

Been there  twice in the early 2000's. Even bought a few. Am I really going to sit here and argue about Rodeo Drive?  You guys can keep em. I may be spouting off but believe me I am not standing up by myself. Lots of people feel just like I do. They just choose to not speak up.