Shorthorn calving ease issues or not?

[justintime]

Doc, I hope your budget allows a field full of those cattle. Not me. My God people, Rodeo Drive? Really? Bad carcass, hard doing. Has the Wakaru bull sold yet? Nice folks for sure but come on. Rodeo Drive?! That makes me want to puke, Sorry. Send them to Ireland. Goodness people. What is the definition of insanity?

Really Brock?   You are critical that I used a bull that ranks in the top 1% of the breed for marbling and 25% for REA.   I am amazed that you can spout off the way you do.  Stop by in Rensselaer and after going through the cow herd then you can be critical.  Remember, these cows are feeding two families right now, and have since 1902, we can't be that wrong.

Been there  twice in the early 2000's. Even bought a few. Am I really going to sit here and argue about Rodeo Drive?  You guys can keep em. I may be spouting off but believe me I am not standing up by myself. Lots of people feel just like I do. They just choose to not speak up.

And there are also lots of people who don't feel like you do Brock, and they just choose to not speak up as well. That is the beauty of breeding these cattle in that we can each select our own bloodlines and raise any kind of cattle we want too. You are again doing what I do not think we can or should do, that being put all cattle from a bloodline in the same basket. I would use another RD son in a heartbeat if he was like the GR Rodeo 4000 bull I used years ago.Since we started ultrasounding our bulls, the ones with RD in their genetic make-up have consistently had above average carcass data. Our commercial buyers have gobbled these RD grandsons up and have been doing this for more than a few years.  I can think of several RD daughters who were amongst the most beautiful cows I ever saw. Just because you chose not to use these genetics don't mean anyone else shouldn't either. I know I will never change your opinion, but I also would not criticize what genetics you use in your herd. Everyone deserves to have the right to plot their own course and breed whatever they want to. If they have a market for these cattle, and they help to pay the bills and feed your family then what right does anyone have to tell you that you are wrong? All I have been trying to do since I came onto this board, is to try to say that we need to evaluate these cattle on their own merit and not just toss them aside because of their heritage. IMO, this is the biggest problem this breed has. Everyone has to determine what market you are going to aim for, and what is marketable in your own area. If producing show heifers is your priority, then use every available bloodline at your dis;posal to produce the best heifers you can design. If your focus is on producing commerical bulls, then do the same thing. Approximately 75-80 % of the cattle an average breeder will sell each year, will sell within 100 miles of where they live. There is room for every breeder to do their own thing and there is room for every bloodline. We should be very thankful for the diverse genetic options we have. A few other breeds dream of having this .

 

[GONEWEST]

Off topic a little, but someone mentioned that there were articles about the show ring and EPD's in the Shorthorn Country magazine.  I ASSUME this meant that using EPD's to judge cattle is being discussed. Is that what the articles were about?

 

[Shorthorns4us]

The articles in the Shorthorn Country address the problems in the past year with some EPD numbers coming in very suspicously and the measures that some people are taking to win at the shows.
I appreciate the fact that the board is addressing these issues.
EF

 

[OH Breeder]

Whether we agree with Brock or Jit or Waukaru it doesn't really matter. We are all doing what we want. We may not like the opinions of some or how they are displayed but isn't great we as shorthorn breeders are this passsionate about our breed. I wish I could take a fraction of what is discussed on this board out to the general shorthorn population. There are alot of folks doing things different and well that have found their nitch. I have walked TG herd and he has some very functional cattle that do what his expectations have been set to do. I also have had the pleasure to see Doc's herd and some other folks on this board. All run programs that are TOP notch but VERY VERY different from one another. I respect each breeder for what he/she has set out to do and may not agree with howthey got there but it works.
Its okay if TG is not a fan of Rodeo Drive- just an opinion. I am sure their are some of you that are not fans of 329 or some of the other bulls that folks have went a different direction. Just drawing a point- we can't see one another faces, I am very glad of that some days cuz I look scarey. So some of the post get "lost in translation....." Its unfortunate because their is valuable information here. Filter through the display and look for the important peices.
We used everyone's calving ease sires on a big variety of cattle- clubby genetics, old school and new blood. Let you know how that worked out about Decemeber 28 the first one is due to drop out of a Johnny Walker Red/ Sonny heifer bred to Alta Cedar First Blood. Following that we have additiona "unusual crosses". I hope it works. But if it doesn't they will taste good because of all the meat we sell the most requested is Shorthorns! (thumbsup)
Just call me Switzerland..............

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Well said Mr fisher. I guess the heat is making me grumpy. I never bashed Wakaru's cattle and I try not to bash anybodys. I cant stand Rodeo Drive. Sorry. JMO. I am frustrated that he is still being used. Nothing I can do about that. How many RD sons are in stud right now?  Wouldnt he be considered a crossbred mongrel these days? I run a couple businesses away from the farm. They have to be effiecent and I dont have time to beat around the bush and hope I didnt hurt someones feelings. I deal with cattle the same way. If you got something good, I will use it. When you try and sell me something that you claim is good and I have used it and I know it doesnt work, well I call em like I see em. The bull obviously did alot of good for alot of folks in the 80's and 90's but lets be real. 

With all the variations I have read about on here about how different full sibs can be, it makes me wonder what the point of flushing is? I thought it was to get more same type calves?  With all the different sizes i am seeing, it makes me go hmmmm . I dont take anything anybody has said to me personal. I respect everybodys choices. I just want folks to think about what they are really doing and where they want their herd to be for the future. Do you want to win the shows? Do you want to try and capture some of the commercial market from the angus? Both? I like to see folks post their thoughts.

Im glad to see wakaru on here believe it or not. I wish more well known breeders would speak up too. I think steerplanet has made more progress then anything I have ever been a part of.

Its ok if you dont like me or think I am wacko. like JIT says. "Plenty of room for all of us." Variety is a good thing.  If you can make RD work for you, then great, but I have no idea how you do it? I wonder what a bunch of RD sons would do at a place like the King Ranch? Do you think they would cut it? I dont.

 

[oakview]

I don't know as if I would take issue with anything the Jordans did with their cattle.  Is there another more documented herd of Shorthorns in the U.S.?  In this information age, I know of no other place to go to get more information on Shorthorns.  I don't think it would even be close.  Rodeo Drive appears in the pedigrees of many of their best cattle.  If they want to reintroduce his genetics, I'll bet there's a plan.  Speaking of retro genetics, I'll bet I noticed at least a half dozen Leader 21 sons in the new Shorthorn Country.  Has anybody considered Jordan's Ransom 179 bull?  Moderate framed, red, polled, correct, adequately muscled.  If you want to relive the past, he'd be a logical place to start in my opinion.  My herd is like the majority of Shorthorn herds in the Midwest.  We have fairly small herds that generally utilize small tracts of land unsuitable for corn or beans, most of us do something else to generate most of our income.  Let's face it, most of us raise them because we grew up with them and just like Shorthorns.  If we ran a true commercial cow herd right and needed all the documentation we could get to improve our odds of turning a profit, Waukaru would be on a very short list of places to visit.

 

[r.n.reed]

It is indeed a sad commentary on our breed that a significant portion of the commercially oriented breeders have chosen to forego or skip the last 50 yrs of ''genetic progress''in an effort to breed the kind of cattle their customers are requiring.The issue is more about survival than being ''retro''.

 

[JTM]

A lot of interesting commentary that I would like to comment on specifically, but I willl just try to make a point to show how difficult this all gets.
JIT, I agree with everything you said about there being room for every breeder to do their own thing. I want to make a point about something you said in your last post. You said, "we need to evaluate these cattle on their own merit and not just toss them aside because of their heritage. IMO, this is the biggest problem this breed has." I don't know you personally and can't say how well your specific cattle perform because I have no personal experience with them. Speaking in general about the cattle business and specifically the show cattle business, the biggest problem I believe this breed has is the dishonesty of performance records, etc. Have you ever got out weighed at a major show by 250lbs in a calf class? Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult for new comers to the breed to select based on EPD's that have been falsely reported for too many years. This is where the problem with your opinion on evaluating these cattle on their own merit comes into play. I don't believe there should be such a swing in the performance of a bloodlline as we are discussing. Shouldn't there be some bit of consistency? At the same time, if what you are doing is working and you are getting really good results that are making your customers really happy, then you have done an excellent job in my opinion and anyone should be jealous of you for being able to do that with these genetics. I mean that sincerely. On the other hand, I think what TG is saying makes a lot of sense for the breed as a whole. When we are talking about new breeders and young people trying to start a Shorthorn herd, we need to make sure that their experience will be what they expect it to be. Again, imo, one of the biggest problems in this breed and any show cattle breed, is the honesty of the performance numbers and the honesty of the breeders to their customers. Don't take this as an accusation because I have been accused of changing birthdates when we did not.  We don't change birth dates, birth weights, or any of the like. By the way, I've got an awesome Eldorado bull calf with a 105lb birthweight if anyone is interested...(no joke, he is purty good) <rock>

 

[Waukaru]

Well said Mr fisher. I guess the heat is making me grumpy. I never bashed Wakaru's cattle and I try not to bash anybodys. I cant stand Rodeo Drive. Sorry. JMO. I am frustrated that he is still being used. Nothing I can do about that. How many RD sons are in stud right now?  Wouldnt he be considered a crossbred mongrel these days? I run a couple businesses away from the farm. They have to be effiecent and I dont have time to beat around the bush and hope I didnt hurt someones feelings. I deal with cattle the same way. If you got something good, I will use it. When you try and sell me something that you claim is good and I have used it and I know it doesnt work, well I call em like I see em. The bull obviously did alot of good for alot of folks in the 80's and 90's but lets be real. 

With all the variations I have read about on here about how different full sibs can be, it makes me wonder what the point of flushing is? I thought it was to get more same type calves?  With all the different sizes i am seeing, it makes me go hmmmm . I dont take anything anybody has said to me personal. I respect everybodys choices. I just want folks to think about what they are really doing and where they want their herd to be for the future. Do you want to win the shows? Do you want to try and capture some of the commercial market from the angus? Both? I like to see folks post their thoughts.

Im glad to see wakaru on here believe it or not. I wish more well known breeders would speak up too. I think steerplanet has made more progress then anything I have ever been a part of.

Its ok if you dont like me or think I am wacko. like JIT says. "Plenty of room for all of us." Variety is a good thing.  If you can make RD work for you, then great, but I have no idea how you do it? I wonder what a bunch of RD sons would do at a place like the King Ranch? Do you think they would cut it? I dont.

The two bulls that I have sold to King Ranch both had Rodeo in them three times.  4125431 and 4126298.  The two bulls that they bought semen from had Rodeo twice in each pedigree.  Brock, I sold them alot of semen.  Damn that rodoe drive!

 

[Doc]

Well said Mr fisher. I guess the heat is making me grumpy. I never bashed Wakaru's cattle and I try not to bash anybodys. I cant stand Rodeo Drive. Sorry. JMO. I am frustrated that he is still being used. Nothing I can do about that. How many RD sons are in stud right now?  Wouldnt he be considered a crossbred mongrel these days? I run a couple businesses away from the farm. They have to be effiecent and I dont have time to beat around the bush and hope I didnt hurt someones feelings. I deal with cattle the same way. If you got something good, I will use it. When you try and sell me something that you claim is good and I have used it and I know it doesnt work, well I call em like I see em. The bull obviously did alot of good for alot of folks in the 80's and 90's but lets be real. 

With all the variations I have read about on here about how different full sibs can be, it makes me wonder what the point of flushing is? I thought it was to get more same type calves?  With all the different sizes i am seeing, it makes me go hmmmm . I dont take anything anybody has said to me personal. I respect everybodys choices. I just want folks to think about what they are really doing and where they want their herd to be for the future. Do you want to win the shows? Do you want to try and capture some of the commercial market from the angus? Both? I like to see folks post their thoughts.

Im glad to see wakaru on here believe it or not. I wish more well known breeders would speak up too. I think steerplanet has made more progress then anything I have ever been a part of.

Its ok if you dont like me or think I am wacko. like JIT says. "Plenty of room for all of us." Variety is a good thing.  If you can make RD work for you, then great, but I have no idea how you do it? I wonder what a bunch of RD sons would do at a place like the King Ranch? Do you think they would cut it? I dont.

The two bulls that I have sold to King Ranch both had Rodeo in them three times.  4125431 and 4126298.  The two bulls that they bought semen from had Rodeo twice in each pedigree.   Brock, I sold them alot of semen.  Damn that rodoe drive!

Thats pretty cool that you have sold bulls & semen to King Ranch. They were doing a deal trying to develop a new line of Gerts for outcross purposes, a couple of years ago were they part of that project? Thanks for taking the time to respond!! Not all the people on SP are as rude as some.

 

[linnettejane]

Have you ever got out weighed at a major show by 250lbs in a calf class? Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult for new comers to the breed to select based on EPD's that have been falsely reported for too many years.

every time i walk in the ring at naile!!!  lol  im in first place as they enter the ring!!!  cause i always have the smallest in the classes!

you mentioned 250 lbs...ive been in classes the spread was even bigger than that...and one class the judge even commented about the amazing average daily gain rate that had to be on that animal...then cautioned about being "careful"....but still put it first....lol...

but hey!  its all about having fun, right!  ;D

so, did everybody read the message from the president in this months country???  (thumbsup)

 

[Dale]

Yes, Waukaru has possibly the best-documented Shorthons on earth.  They not only have working cattle, but also Jordans are well-aware of trends and select accordingly.  They are very focused on important traits.

It is easy to start a great debate about Rodeo--he's better back a little in the pedigree so that the birth weights are moderated (his BW does not carry down many generations--a couple of his sons are suitable to breed heifers).  Add some Rodeo Drive if you want to increase marbling and he's strong on muscling.  After breeders chase the smaller frames until Shorthorns get extreme, we'll need some of these growthy genetics to bring them back up.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I rest my case. Top 98% bw. 8 frame bull. Sweet. Keep using him. Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?  You guys just keep believing he is useful .Thats your choice.

Dairy looking shorthorn mama cows that eat like a combine are great. May as well bring back Ayatollah too.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I rest my case. Top 98% bw. 8 frame bull. Sweet. Keep using him. Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?  You guys just keep believing he is useful .Thats your choice.

Dairy looking shorthorn mama cows that eat like a combine are great. May as well bring back Ayatollah too.

I actually had one Rodeo Drive calf and she never made it in the replacement pen but that is just one calf.  With that said I did a quick google search on Rodeo Drive and his decendents and came up with a lot of beautiful daughters and grand daughters.  If the good ones are like those females I don't see why you would condem all of them? I think what JIT was saying is the good ones are good, but that should be true of any breeding program.  Which is where breeders cull and make decisions that work for their own programs.  Attached are daughters and grand daughters of Rodeo Drive that really shouldn't be discounted and it took me all of 5 minutes to find them so I am sure that if dug I could have found a lot more.

 

[Okotoks]

I rest my case. Top 98% bw. 8 frame bull. Sweet. Keep using him. Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?  You guys just keep believing he is useful .Thats your choice.

Dairy looking shorthorn mama cows that eat like a combine are great. May as well bring back Ayatollah too.

Actually you have not made your case so how can you rest it! First of all both you and Sue claim we are to ignore Shorthorn EPD's so you can hardly rely on them to make your case. Breeding cattle is about selection and when you start throwing animals away because they have a certain animal in their background instead of judging them on their own merit you really will limit genetic progress. Preach all you want about purity, linebreeding and like to like but the evidence is all around that selection of individuals is key to progress. You bring up Ayatollah as though nothing good descends from him but mant good animals have one or two crosses in their background and they breed consistently and true with well fleshed, good muscled easy fleshing offspring. No one has to use a bloodline they don't like and many have different experiences with different bloodlines but for you and Sue to be rude about other programs especially ones that are respected and successful makes one think you need to attack others programs in order to make your own look better.
Some animals you would never want to use Brock because they have Ayatollah in their background!

 

[nate53]

I rest my case. Top 98% bw. 8 frame bull. Sweet. Keep using him. Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?  You guys just keep believing he is useful .Thats your choice.

Dairy looking shorthorn mama cows that eat like a combine are great. May as well bring back Ayatollah too.

Actually you have not made your case so how can you rest it! First of all both you and Sue claim we are to ignore Shorthorn EPD's so you can hardly rely on them to make your case. Breeding cattle is about selection and when you start throwing animals away because they have a certain animal in their background instead of judging them on their own merit you really will limit genetic progress. Preach all you want about purity, linebreeding and like to like but the evidence is all around that selection of individuals is key to progress. You bring up Ayatollah as though nothing good descends from him but mant good animals have one or two crosses in their background and they breed consistently and true with well fleshed, good muscled easy fleshing offspring. No one has to use a bloodline they don't like and many have different experiences with different bloodlines but for you and Sue to be rude about other programs especially ones that are respected and successful makes one think you need to attack others programs in order to make your own look better.
Some animals you would never want to use Brock because they have Ayatollah in their background!

Actually Okotoks I was the one who mentioned like to like matings and I haven't said anything bad about anybody else's program.  I will agree with you on judging each animal on their own merits, however I don't want to use 20 different full sibs and wait years and $$$$$$$ later to find out which one or two was the good ones and bred differently than their genetics suggest!  That is not the kind of progress I'm interested in and I'm sure there is no commercial breeder in the country that wants to use that approach!  The older I get the less suprises I want, I guess the last several years has spoiled me on not having to pull calves or get up in the middle of the night to check on stuff.  I have found that using like to like bred bulls on our cows and heifers, compared to that bull that was 80lbs. and the breeder said that he would be calving ease even though he had bigger weights in his background.  The difference between these for us has been night and day!  However this has been my black angus experience and maybe shorthorns can't compete in this area?

 

[jaimiediamond]

I think that Okotoks was pointing out that with proper selection those lines could work in a purebred program.  We have mostly sold our bulls commercially over the years and have had many repeat customers.  We have always selected for a phenotype clean and smooth with depth and length. The example of the Ayatollah being in some of our cattle's pedigrees. was used by Okotoks.  We are talking many generations back and with careful selection we have developed a consistent product.  If Dad and grand dad had thrown away those genetics because Ayatollah was a "train wreck" for many people we wouldn't have some of the more impressive cattle in our herd today. To some up that little rant what I find frustrating is that breeders don't think positively regarding our breed even this topics name leaves a negative taste in many peoples mouth. I am surprised we have any commercial interest with the consistent smacks at each others programs. 

I strongly feel that each of us have a lot to offer and instead of insulting we could bring thoughts to the table say what worked for us and what didn't.  Who knows if Shorthorn breeders united we have the potential to really take over the market.  Fantastic carcass, great maternal, soundness, longevity, easy fleshing cattle.  Look at Waukaru, and  Sneeds consistently documenting, as well as many others.  If we keep fighting and insulting we will get no where

I am unable to speak of the quality of Trumps, or Rodeo Drive cattle in general as Diamond Shorthorns hasn't used them but with that said there are some great cattle from these widely used bulls. Some may have been totally disastrous but others can be used to better the breed. 

 

[Aussie]

I know she may be hard doing and may of been 120 lbs when born but this is one impressive looking cow form the outside looking in.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Lord , you folks have thin skin. I never said anything bad about anybody personally. I could but I choose not to. I said I didnt like a couple bulls. If you like them, great. Not me and not very many commercial folks. If they did, dont you think there would be a strong demand? I will keep my mouth shut. You guys figure out your own deals. Im good with what Im doing. Good for you Barry. Rodeo drive is king. Shame on me for questioning the same genetics that have led the breed for two decades. Look where it got us.

Hey Barry, what ever happened to the Minnie calf sired by Byland Mission I bred and sold back to you?  What about the maternal sib to Gold Ship? I see you sold a heifer out of TG Loretta Minnie in your last "Share the Harvest" sale. Glad you can make those cattle work. Keep the feed bunk full. So long steer planet. Im takin a break for awhile.................................... Rodeo Drive.  :

Maybe if I spent more money, you would have remembered me. Oh well, that sale is where I met sue. Funny how things work out.

Cheers folks.
Brock Eagon..............somewhere in the vicinity of la la land.

 

[JTM]

I rest my case. Top 98% bw. 8 frame bull. Sweet. Keep using him. Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?  You guys just keep believing he is useful .Thats your choice.

Dairy looking shorthorn mama cows that eat like a combine are great. May as well bring back Ayatollah too.

Actually you have not made your case so how can you rest it! First of all both you and Sue claim we are to ignore Shorthorn EPD's so you can hardly rely on them to make your case. Breeding cattle is about selection and when you start throwing animals away because they have a certain animal in their background instead of judging them on their own merit you really will limit genetic progress. Preach all you want about purity, linebreeding and like to like but the evidence is all around that selection of individuals is key to progress. You bring up Ayatollah as though nothing good descends from him but mant good animals have one or two crosses in their background and they breed consistently and true with well fleshed, good muscled easy fleshing offspring. No one has to use a bloodline they don't like and many have different experiences with different bloodlines but for you and Sue to be rude about other programs especially ones that are respected and successful makes one think you need to attack others programs in order to make your own look better.
Some animals you would never want to use Brock because they have Ayatollah in their background!

Actually Okotoks I was the one who mentioned like to like matings and I haven't said anything bad about anybody else's program.  I will agree with you on judging each animal on their own merits, however I don't want to use 20 different full sibs and wait years and $$$$$$$ later to find out which one or two was the good ones and bred differently than their genetics suggest!  That is not the kind of progress I'm interested in and I'm sure there is no commercial breeder in the country that wants to use that approach!  The older I get the less suprises I want, I guess the last several years has spoiled me on not having to pull calves or get up in the middle of the night to check on stuff.  I have found that using like to like bred bulls on our cows and heifers, compared to that bull that was 80lbs. and the breeder said that he would be calving ease even though he had bigger weights in his background.  The difference between these for us has been night and day!  However this has been my black angus experience and maybe shorthorns can't compete in this area?

Nate 53, thank you for making my point about how it is difficult to make progress by trying to make selections from a bunch of full sibs. That is basically what I was trying to get at in my previous post. I guess either nobody agrees or I failed to make my point clearly. How much progress towards commercial acceptability do we waste by trying to judge a bull that is a half or full sibling to another bull? Don't we have to put him on some cows, some heifers, then breed his daughters to another bull to see if the genetics really work? How many "Rodeo Drive" sons do we need to try on cows before we find the one that isn't a cow killer? My point being, I don't believe that this is a very good strategy for the breed as a whole to be taking. I think we need to focus on accurate and honest numbers and then things will begin to take care of themselves. Hopefully this is already beginning to happen from what I have heard here lately. I wish my Shorthorn Country would get here before the last week in the month...
In general, I think this post is exactly the kind that we need to have in the Shorthorn arena in order to show the commercial world that we are serious about our breed and that we can be taken at our word. It's seems as though a lot of breeders want to keep all of their skeletons in their closet and keep the bad experiences hush, hush. This is why we have had the problems we are dealing with. How many people would have made that 105lb bw bull calf about 92lbs because it was ten days over due? How many of you still do that to this day?