Shorthorn calving ease issues or not?

[justintime]

JTM, I can only speak for myself, but I think you have made a very good point regardiung gestation length. I have never adjusted a birthweight or a birthdate and I think gestation length is one of the most important factors affecting birth weight. Of course there are other factors, but the length of the gestation period can make the difference between an unassisted birth and a hard pull. The Irish bull( HC Mist's Return 13R) we raised that is the easiest calving sire we ever used and he had the shortest gestation length of any bull we have used. I am not certain what all affects the gestation length but it is definitely affected by the sire, as Mist's Return calves are always born at least a week before the 283 day calving tables. I am also wondering if the mother can have an effect on this, as I have seen this especially in ET calves. One two occasions we have had 18 days between the first ET calf and the last one, on embryos from the same flush implanted on the same day.In both cases, it was the same recip cow that was the last one to calve. She has had 5 ET calves now, and she had gone over due with every one of them. Is it something in her genetics that causes this ? If the dam's genetics can affect gestation length, then why is it that our Mist's Return calves are all got short gestation lengths despite the genetics of the dam? We used Mist's Return on our heifers for 4 years and only assisted one birth, and it was a calf with a foot back.
In looking back at my records, GR Rodeo 4000 , the RD son that calved so good here, also sired calves with a shorter gestation length than average. He was also shaped right for calving ease but we never touched a calf from him at birth from cows or heifers. His sons were very similar. In the case of the flushmates, HC Midas 80M and HC Merger 93M, there was 9 days between them at birth. Midas was the easier calving sire of the two bulls, but we never had any problems using Merger on cows.
I often wonder about the gestation length of some of today's cattle with so many people inducing a cow if she goes overdue even a day or two. I have never induced a cow and probably never will ( I suppose there may be a reason to some day, but right now, I can't think of one). I think we all need to be putting more emphasis on gestation length and calving ease rather than just talking about birth weights
I don't have the answers to why some of these cattle calve easier than others with similar pedigrees do. This is not just a Shorthorn issue. Just a few days ago, at our local fair, I was talking with two Angus breeders who are using full brothers from a well known Angus herd, and these two bulls are like night and day in regards to calving ease and birth weights of their calves. These two bulls were pretty high dollar bulls, but they are breeding completely differently. How do you explain this using these full brothers EPDs?
Some of the differences could be management related, but both run their cow herds in very similar manners. I don't think there is a simple easy answer to some of these questions. Genetics are often complex and we have all seen major differences between some full sibs born in different years. I suspect there can also be different genetic reasons for why two full sibs will be so different in how they calve. 

 

[JTM]

JIT, I totally agree with you that a lot of the problems are probably gestation length related. Actually, I would go as far to say that it might be 75% of the problem. I know that probably 75% of the 120lb calves I have had (which is probably about 5 or 6 total) were probably past the 285 date by about 14 days. I think we are on to something with this. Although, I just remember a Proud Jazz heifer I had that was about 14 days over and was 75 lbs. Those are the ones where people who are inducing get into trouble. Unfortunately I think the inducing practice is so wide spread already. The problem is that the genetics that produce the winners in the show ring are the same ones that are needing to be induced because they go over too often. That is very interesting about your recip cow that is going over all of the time. I also wonder where backwards calves come into play? Is it genetic also? I have a suspicion that a lot of these traits have a positve correlation.
As far as the two full brothers having opposite performance on birthweights. The best theory I can come up with is that there pedigree has a lot of different types close up in the pedigree that have been bred for maximum growth and some for low birthweight, etc. It's kind of like crossbreeding, there isn't a lot of consistency in the breeding. This is why I like the idea that Nate53 and a few others were advocating for calving ease and birthweight. Breeding like kind to like kind or even line breeding once you find something worthing of it that wouldn't exaggerate a negative you couldn't afford to exaggerate.

 

[Jacob B]

I agree with the gestation length issue, it hurts you at calving time as well as breeding time when you are loosing days on that cows cycle time. 
As far as rodeo drive goes kids...once again some of you are trying to tell someone else what they should be doing, I always thought the best salesperson could tell you the options on both side and let them know how your experiences have been with both.  Can't we make up our own mind on what we want to do and what we enjoy doing?  Please don't tell me what I can and can not breed.  I have seen some pretty BAD rodeo drive cattle out there in this world that are way to big and hard doing critters, but I have also seen some pretty moderate, not midget cattle with no grow, but moderate females that have a ton of longevity and are super EASY fleshy cattle.  I am not a big fan of him for that inconsistancy.  But I say do what you want with him and your cattle.

 

[Jacob B]

As far as the last issue of the country and the articles I read...I think your comment jsut got ignored, they must be hoping that nobody gets into that bag of worms.  I remember not too long ago I took a bull calf down to NAILE that looked impressive, probably in the top two or three in the class, but we got barried due to his size, he did turn out to be a moderate kinda bull in the end but there were calves that towered over us in class.  Judge did comment on that he did like the phenotype, jsut that we gave up too much in "performance".  I also took a bull calf a few years before that and won a class.  I was told as a calf that maybe I should have been making him a little younger, but I just couldn't do it, and it turned out well for us anyway, sometimes it hurts you and sometimes it doesn't.  The funny thing about that calf is the people who were telling me to make him younger....anyways, will be interesting to see what comes of all that talk in the country.

 

[GM]

Speaking of the articles in the Shorthorn Country, I'm wondering if there is factual proof or confirmed evidence of cheating why not make the names of the unethical breeders public?  I don't know who they are referring to, but as a consumer I would like to know so that I can avoid them.  Not trying to hijack the thread...just curious

GM

 

[r.n.reed]

Speaking of articles in the Shorthorn Country here is an interesting trend in the Herd Reference issue.2011 a total of 23 pages of print out of 140 something pages.This includes indexes,a 2 page show listing etc.1999 HRI 47  pages of print out of a total of 137 pages.1938 Herd ref.issue at the depths of the depression there was a total of 137 pages,way over 1/2 in print with over 47 articles.

 

[JTM]

Speaking of the articles in the Shorthorn Country, I'm wondering if there is factual proof or confirmed evidence of cheating why not make the names of the unethical breeders public?  I don't know who they are referring to, but as a consumer I would like to know so that I can avoid them.  Not trying to hijack the thread...just curious

GM

GM, Look at about 75% of the calves showing at any major show and you will see who it is... The junior national show was a good one to notice the problem. May heifers that look like March's.

Jacob B, I totally agree with telling your customers the options of the different types of breeding and telling them the truth about the experiences you have had with both. That is how I approach things because we do have differences in performance in our show cattle.

 

[Okotoks]

I always like to think what comes around goes around. When you start changing the facts where do you draw the line? We had a cow Diamond Fairest Anna 28F and not only did she move up every year if allowed but she also had a short gestation by about 8 days. Northern Legend 3N hurt his pelvis and we were told there was less than a 50% chance he would get better. Come spring when he was back to almost normal we decided we would start by hand breeding him. The first cow in season was Fairest Anna. Long story short she calved early on Dec. 26. The calf was registered as being born Dec. 26. She had two full brothers in the R year. DIAMOND ROCK LEGEND 30R born Feb. 12, 2005 and DIAMOND ROCK N ROLL LEGEND 89R born Dec. 26, 2005. It is what it is. Fairest Anna had another Dec. calf ( Dec. 9 )and then we moved her back into January. There are no calf classes in Canada for fall or Dec. calves they end up with the late spring or summer calves. Years ago Downsview Ringmaster and Downsview Jackpot showed in the two year old bull class together, one born Jan. 7 and one born Nov. 27 the same year ,1977. At the end of the day I'd rather have the facts be facts.

http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/list.cgi?_list=damof&_association=21&_breedcode=MS&_countrycode=&_regnumberprefix=F&_regnumber=667601&_regnumbersuffix=

http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/list.cgi?_list=damof&_association=21&_breedcode=MS&_countrycode=&_regnumberprefix=F&_regnumber=621979&_regnumbersuffix=

 

[RyanChandler]

I agree with the gestation length issue, it hurts you at calving time as well as breeding time when you are loosing days on that cows cycle time. 
As far as rodeo drive goes kids...once again some of you are trying to tell someone else what they should be doing, I always thought the best salesperson could tell you the options on both side and let them know how your experiences have been with both.  Can't we make up our own mind on what we want to do and what we enjoy doing?  Please don't tell me what I can and can not breed.  I have seen some pretty BAD rodeo drive cattle out there in this world that are way to big and hard doing critters, but I have also seen some pretty moderate, not midget cattle with no grow, but moderate females that have a ton of longevity and are super EASY fleshy cattle.  I am not a big fan of him for that inconsistancy.  But I say do what you want with him and your cattle.

The difference in a salesperson and a honest breeder is simple.  The salesperson has his own self interest in mind and gives no thought as to the future repercussions his product might have on the INTEGRITY of the breed.  Of course I'm going to bash certain types of shorthorns as they give my shorthorns a bad rap.  The same as I bash on men who beat their wife. They give men a bad rap. How can I promote my product as a legitimate alternative to other maternal breeds when we have breeders out there utilizing genetics that are detrimental to the prosperity of the breed.  Continuing to use genetics that created the negative stereotypes does nothing but reinforce them.  

 

[sue]

I agree with the gestation length issue, it hurts you at calving time as well as breeding time when you are loosing days on that cows cycle time. 
As far as rodeo drive goes kids...once again some of you are trying to tell someone else what they should be doing, I always thought the best salesperson could tell you the options on both side and let them know how your experiences have been with both.  Can't we make up our own mind on what we want to do and what we enjoy doing?  Please don't tell me what I can and can not breed.  I have seen some pretty BAD rodeo drive cattle out there in this world that are way to big and hard doing critters, but I have also seen some pretty moderate, not midget cattle with no grow, but moderate females that have a ton of longevity and are super EASY fleshy cattle.  I am not a big fan of him for that inconsistancy.  But I say do what you want with him and your cattle.

The difference in a salesperson and a honest breeder is simple.  The salesperson has his own self interest in mind and gives no thought as to the future repercussions his product might have on the INTEGRITY of the breed.  Of course I'm going to bash certain types of shorthorns as they give my shorthorns a bad rap.  The same as I bash on men who beat their wife. They give men a bad rap. How can I promote my product as a legitimate alternative to other maternal breeds when we have breeders out there utilizing genetics that are detrimental to the prosperity of the breed.  Continuing to use genetics that created the negative stereotypes does nothing but reinforce them.  

Ryan welcome to Steerplanet and welcome to shorthorn. Good luck - I think you have the right attitude to market and sell breeding seedstock.  Appreciate your cow  sense for the maternal breed of shorthorns. Hope you all get rain soon.

 

[Doc]

The difference in a salesperson and a honest breeder is simple.  The salesperson has his own self interest in mind and gives no thought as to the future repercussions his product might have on the INTEGRITY of the breed.  Of course I'm going to bash certain types of shorthorns as they give my shorthorns a bad rap.  The same as I bash on men who beat their wife. They give men a bad rap. How can I promote my product as a legitimate alternative to other maternal breeds when we have breeders out there utilizing genetics that are detrimental to the prosperity of the breed.  Continuing to use genetics that created the negative stereotypes does nothing but reinforce them.  

Welcome to SP!!!  I'm going to have to disagree with your 1st post though. I think what you have described would be considered an "unethical" saleperson. I would consider myself a salesperson & a honest breeder. I think an ethical salesperson helps promote the breed. When you breed a outstanding animal & don't "sell it"(as in get the word out) to other breeders , then you have actually done a disservice to the breed IMO. Just curious what kind of Shorthorns you think give your Shorthorns a bad rap?

 

[GM]

Speaking of articles in the Shorthorn Country here is an interesting trend in the Herd Reference issue.2011 a total of 23 pages of print out of 140 something pages.This includes indexes,a 2 page show listing etc.1999 HRI 47  pages of print out of a total of 137 pages.1938 Herd ref.issue at the depths of the depression there was a total of 137 pages,way over 1/2 in print with over 47 articles.

I've noticed this same trend...I have Shorthorn Country's that go back to the late 70's and there was definitly more to read, and more to take away from a learning standpoint.  I often wondered why it changed.  Even Doc Hunsley would write articles and source data.  Now it seems as though some of the articles are written last minute in a "stream of consciousness" style.

 

[r.n.reed]

Speaking of articles in the Shorthorn Country here is an interesting trend in the Herd Reference issue.2011 a total of 23 pages of print out of 140 something pages.This includes indexes,a 2 page show listing etc.1999 HRI 47  pages of print out of a total of 137 pages.1938 Herd ref.issue at the depths of the depression there was a total of 137 pages,way over 1/2 in print with over 47 articles.

I've noticed this same trend...I have Shorthorn Country's that go back to the late 70's and there was definitly more to read, and more to take away from a learning standpoint.  I often wondered why it changed.  Even Doc Hunsley would write articles and source data.  Now it seems as though some of the articles are written last minute in a "stream of consciousness" style.

I agree GM that the content is '' light'' as well.I think it is also a disservice to the advertisers.When you have page after page of 4 color ads most of them featuring a roan show heifer you lose the ability to shock and awe.

 

[RyanChandler]

Welcome to SP!!!  I'm going to have to disagree with your 1st post though. I think what you have described would be considered an "unethical" saleperson. I would consider myself a salesperson & a honest breeder. I think an ethical salesperson helps promote the breed. When you breed a outstanding animal & don't "sell it"(as in get the word out) to other breeders , then you have actually done a disservice to the breed IMO. Just curious what kind of Shorthorns you think give your Shorthorns a bad rap?

Thanks Doc for the welcome!    I have read numerous times on here where people have justified using terminal lines of shorthorns by saying something like "these cattle have supported x amount of people for umpteen years" and "who are you to question or bad mouth the cattle that support my family."  This attempt to justify breeding hard doing, terrible uddered,  functionally unsound cattle, because their marketing and sales skills FAR outweigh their ability to apply proper selection protocols based on functional traits,  is what I find unethical.  To quote Cool Hand Luke, "calling it your job don't make it right."

Any shorthorn genetics that reinforce the stereotypes our breed suffers from are the type that I will continually speak out against.  Those with 100+lb bw, those that are framey and lack muscle, those that  have bloom tits, and just shorthorns in general that lack the essential functional traits to be productive brood cows are the type that give my herd a bad rap.  Shorthorns are a maternal breed and any breeders agenda to breed them as anything else does so at the expense of our breeds future. Image is everything and until shorthorns establish a CONSISTENT breed image,  we will continue to struggle to gain mkt share.   

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Well said Ryan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <beer> (clapping) (pop)

 

[vanridge]

Ok, so we are a very commercial herd, I mean there are a lot of different breeds walking our pasture. We have used 2 shorthorn bulls that we weren't crazy about but we never had to pull a calf.One had a birth weight just shy of 100 lbs. We never saw a calving ease problem with shorthorns as a breed. No worse then simmys, charlois, etc. We always try to be careful in what bull we choose no matter what breed. We have 1200 lbs cows and we have 1600 lbs cows they all need to give us a live calf in February. That means the birth weight can't be too low or the calf will be at risk for freezing; they need to jump up and suck right away. Ironically, we had a really heavy pull from our calving ease black angus bull (one calf in 2 years...used on all our heifers) it we think it was because of what the heifer was, not the bull. I grew up with simmys and I still love to see them walking around. I have bottle fed a lot of those calves because of calving issues. Limo's, Charlois, even Angus have there difficulties with hard calvers. Doesn't mean there aren't good ones in the mix...Until I started reading posts on steer planet we never considered shorthorns as a calving problem breed.
As for the showring stuff, it is my wish that what is walking in the showring would reflect what is in the pasture. When I see guys get placed last in the yearling heifer class, because their heifers are in breeding shape and the ones above them are pure fat and will never get bred, I get a little discouraged. I don't know if there is a way to fix cheaters, they have been around long before I watched my first show. At our local fair this year the open show competition came down to who had a better feeding program and could get their cattle the fattest. That's an expensive hobby that I will stay away from.

 

[Aussie]

Ok, so we are a very commercial herd, I mean there are a lot of different breeds walking our pasture. We have used 2 shorthorn bulls that we weren't crazy about but we never had to pull a calf.One had a birth weight just shy of 100 lbs. We never saw a calving ease problem with shorthorns as a breed. No worse then simmys, charlois, etc. We always try to be careful in what bull we choose no matter what breed. We have 1200 lbs cows and we have 1600 lbs cows they all need to give us a live calf in February. That means the birth weight can't be too low or the calf will be at risk for freezing; they need to jump up and suck right away. Ironically, we had a really heavy pull from our calving ease black angus bull (one calf in 2 years...used on all our heifers) it we think it was because of what the heifer was, not the bull. I grew up with simmys and I still love to see them walking around. I have bottle fed a lot of those calves because of calving issues. Limo's, Charlois, even Angus have there difficulties with hard calvers. Doesn't mean there aren't good ones in the mix...Until I started reading posts on steer planet we never considered shorthorns as a calving problem breed.
As for the showring stuff, it is my wish that what is walking in the showring would reflect what is in the pasture. When I see guys get placed last in the yearling heifer class, because their heifers are in breeding shape and the ones above them are pure fat and will never get bred, I get a little discouraged. I don't know if there is a way to fix cheaters, they have been around long before I watched my first show. At our local fair this year the open show competition came down to who had a better feeding program and could get their cattle the fattest. That's an expensive hobby that I will stay away from.

(clapping)

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Are those bulls still at the King Ranch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA&feature=fvwrel

 

[Waukaru]

TGC,
Yes those bulls are still at King Ranch.  They are developing a new line of gerts, it does take a bit of time to achieve 5/8 Brahman and 3/8 shorthorn.  I can not remember all of the details exactly.  We have been fortunate to sell to King Ranch and a couple other Santa herds to accomplish this. 
I should respond in more depth to our Rodeo Drive discussion.  It is my belief that that that bull has genetic value in some places.  Of Waukaru's 2011 calf crop only 1/2 of 1 % were sired by Rodeo Drive.  I used the bull for several reasons.  The daughters, granddaughters, and great-granddaughters have been major contributors to the genetics that our customers have demanded.  The carcass merit of the cattle is top notch and the performance is real.  Second, I often use bulls with extremely high EPD accuracies to compare to sires of low accuracies.  This gives us, Waukaru, a better understanding as exactly how the current calf crop performs in terms of birth weight, calving ease, weaning weight, post wean wda, yearling weight, scrotal circumference, backfat, REA and IMF.  We also collect cow body condition scores, preg rates, and DNA analysis of the cattle to determine their worth.  Sometimes we remember only the good in a past herdsire, sometimes only the bad.  It is interesting to note that when Rodeo Drive was used at his peak, many shorthorn cattle had a lot of dual influence.  I have often wondered how the bull may have been perceived if he came along in 1977 or 1997.  Other bulls that we have used in the past with a similar purpose of Rodeo have been Sutherland Ransom 179x, Mill Brook Ransom G9, Mill Brook Marc IV, Waukaru Chaps. Waukaru Prime Minister, W Austin City Limits. and even Stars and Stripes 6th. 
Here is what I know so far of the only Rodeo Drive sired calf  in the 2011 crop.  He was born unassisted and weighed 94 pounds.  The dam is sired Gold Card 5042 and I think she could hold birth weight down. (I would have thought the calf could have weighed even more) The bull ranked 12 out of 15 in his contemporary group for birth weight.  I am anxious to see how the rest of his group compares to him in terms of growth.  Time will tell.  I think the breed has made great progress, I just want to check our work from time to time.  On a side note, the dam of the Rodeo bull calf measured a 5.78 frame as a yearling, posted a yearling ratio of 108 and was the highest IMF female in here group of 2007 females.  She has calved every spring and I have sold two flushes from her.
We know that in beef production we have made progress in herd health, nutrition, pasture management and many other facets.  I think it is okay to stop and see if your performance level is because of genetic progress, or progress in animal husbandry.  That is one of the reasons why I think it is beneficial to use older, proven sires from time to time.

 

[coyote]

Hi Waukaru
I sure likes the looks of Sutherland Ransom 179x, what are the good and bad characteristics of this bull?