Shorty hf bulls

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justintime

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Okotoks said:
aj said:
He is a calve heifers out on cornstalks kind of bull. However my brothers experience is that his daughters have way small pelvics. So here is one instance where this extreme may not work long term.

That's a good point. I have had it the other way around where a bull throws bigger calves but his daughters calve easily because of their pelvis size. I guess we have to work to identify the bulls that do both. Has anyone used any of the " Native Shorthorns". If so how are they to calve?

I have only used a few of the so called " Native " lines and they have mostly been from the Leader line. I have several other bulls that would probably qualify as Native Shorthorn sires in my semen inventory... Four Point Major, Mandalong Super Flag, Mandalong Suoer Elephant, Scotsdale Rodney, Banner Royal Oak, Cumberland Gay Lad,, Meadowbrook Prince 16th, Meadowbrook Roan Chief, Green Row Dominator, to name a few. My calves have all been very moderate in BW. I have tried to be very selective on what females I use these sires on, as I do not believe that most have them have enough muscle for today's markets. Many of these native Shorthorns had pitiful carcass data when we used to collect carcass data on every Shorthorn we fed in our feedlot. We collected several hundred complete carcass data stats using the Agriculture Canada's Blue tag program of the day. That is one of the main reasons we started to look for new bloodlines and became so interested in the Irish strain at the time. That said, some of these native bulls could be excellent tools to use to bring BWs down to more reasonable numbers. When I look at the list of the native Shorthorns that there is still semen available on, I think I would use some caution with a few of them as well. I remember getting some bigger calves from them many years ago.

I would also add that if your Prophecy bull is siring calves with respectable BWs and calving ease, why would you consider using older genetics unless you are looking for a complete outcross?  As I mentioned before, Prophecy looks to me, to be a bull that we should be trying to mass produce in large numbers. If you could fill a pen with a set of bulls like him, and get the proper promotion done on them, I think you would be onto something pretty good.
 

Okotoks

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I would also add that if your Prophecy bull is siring calves with respectable BWs and calving ease, why would you consider using older genetics unless you are looking for a complete outcross?  As I mentioned before, Prophecy looks to me, to be a bull that we should be trying to mass produce in large numbers. If you could fill a pen with a set of bulls like him, and get the proper promotion done on them, I think you would be onto something pretty good.
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I know Prophecy will do a lot of things right. I have attached a photo of one of his calves at Anwender's. He was born Apr. 5 with a 79 lb. birth weight and is photographed on June 23. His dam is a three year old by Northern Legend 3N and grand dam was the last cow we had from the Deer Trail Nitro bull.
I guess I'm always looking for the next bull or new combination to try out. The owner of the Calrossie herd in Scotland used to say one good bull will give a restless nights sleep, two good bulls you would get a bit of rest and three good bulls you would sleep like a baby.
 

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justintime

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Okotoks said:
The owner of the Calrossie herd in Scotland used to say one good bull will give a restless nights sleep, two good bulls you would get a bit of rest and three good bulls you would sleep like a baby.

Mentioning the Calrossie herd, brought back memories of one of the most memorable visits I have had in many years. Two years ago, while I was in Scotland I travelled to the very northern tip of Scotland to visit John Scott's Fearn Shorthorns. While this visit was memorable enough, as I saw some of the most impressive cows in my Scottish trip, in this herd, it was made even more memorable when John asked me if I had ever heard of the Calrossie herd of Shorthorns. I said" I grew up reading about Calrossie and dreaming of someday getting to see this herd. John said that Calrossie was the next farm to him, and that Donald and Diana McGillvary still lived on the farm and raised cattle. The Shorthorns were gone, but they were still raising commercial cattle. John said that I should really meet them seeing I was less than a 1/4 miles from their farm. We jumped in a vehicle and headed down the road. As luck would have it, The McGillvary's were sitting in their car on the side of the road as they were moving their cow herd to a new pasture. We helped them get the cows across the road and into the pasture and then John introduced me to Donald and Di McGillvary. They are very elderly ( in their 80s) but when they heard that I was visiting from Canada, they got quite excited and we must have visited for a couple hours standing on the road. Donald is very bent over and walks with two canes but his mind was extremely sharp. They both talked about breeders from Canada and the US who made the trip to Perth to buy bulls, and they could remember virtually every bull that came over here. I asked Donald at one point, if there were any descendants of their herd, or other Shorthorn herds from that era in Britain, and without a hesitation, he said " I certainly hope not!". He went on to say that the cattle they raised in the 50s and 60s were really poor beef animals and they were the reason the Shorthorn breed became an endangered breed in Britain. I was surprised how openly he talked about their cattle, and they both told many stories of getting 8-10 bulls ready for the Perth sale. I  don't remember exactly what year it was in the mid 50s that they took 14 bulls to the Perth bull sale and they averaged over 6000 guineas ( which would be over $18,000 our money, at that time and probably would have a value of over $75,000 in today's money. ) Donald said that they would hire 2-3 men to work for each bull for about 3 months before the Perth sale, and they would load the bulls and workers on the train about 10 days before the sale ( and they did not clip ... and they still don't clip cattle in Britain at their shows)
Today, the Shorthorn breed is one of the fastest growing and most popular breeds in Britain again. Donald said he really liked some of the Shorthorns he was seeing now, and if he was a younger man he would start a Shorthorn herd again.
I think the story of Donald and Di meeting and getting married is quite amazing. Diana was 17 years old and raised in Australia, when her father sent her to Scotland to buy a herd sire for their Australian herd. On the second occasion that Donald and Diana spoke to each other, Donald told her that he was taken with her and he would like to marry her. Diana said when Donald asked her to marry him, they had only spoken to each other for about 15 minutes. She told him that she would consider his offer, but she would have to ask her father's permission before she would decide. She sent her father a telegram and explained that she had an offer for marriage. Her father telegrammed her back and gave his permission. The next day Diana purchased a bull for her father and a few days later they were married.The bull was shipped to Australia and Diana stayed in Scotland.  They have been together ever since and I could tell by talking to them that their marriage was probably as close to a perfect marriage as I have ever seen. One of them would start a sentence and the other would finish it.  It was an amazing visit and i could have spent another couple days talking to them.  
 

Okotoks

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aj said:
Is semen available? I can't keep tract of all the ai bulls. There is around 6003 bulls who have ads out and they all look alike,are related, and don't have any calves on the ground.
Not yet. we were planning on putting him in the stud this fall. So if everything went well we would have semen by the end of the year or early 2011. (Has to be in the stud longer to pass tests for US)
 

Hilltop

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I was trying to remenber yesterday why the Calrossie name sounded so familiar, and the light finally came on this am! (lol)
Dad used to tell me how he always regreted not buying a son of a bull whose name I believe was Calrossie Highland Piper. Does this ring a bell for you JIT or Okotoks??
I can not remember for sure whom he said had the bull just that he wished he would of had the money at that time to purchase him.
 

Okotoks

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Hilltop said:
I was trying to remenber yesterday why the Calrossie name sounded so familiar, and the light finally came on this am! (lol)
Dad used to tell me how he always regreted not buying a son of a bull whose name I believe was Calrossie Highland Piper. Does this ring a bell for you JIT or Okotoks??
I can not remember for sure whom he said had the bull just that he wished he would of had the money at that time to purchase him.

Calrossie Highland Piper was a herd bull for Sandy Cross, Rothney Farms, Cagary.

I believe he was the sire of Rothney Juggler a bull that set an all time record price at the Calgary Bull Sale about 1960 and sold to Scotsdale in Ontario. Juggler was the grand sire of the Alta Cedar herd bull Scotsdale Torquil. I think Peter or John might still have Torquil semen. Juggler must have been by Bapton Cairnbrogie not Piper
 

justintime

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Calrossie Highland Piper was one of the bulls that the McGillvary's talked about , when I visited with them. They told some very amusing stories of Sandy Cross and his visits to Scotland. Sandy was a real character, and a man that I really never got to know until he was getting on in life. I remember several visits to Rothney when I was quite young but it was usually the farm manager that toured us around.

When Sandy was getting older, he phoned me one day and asked if I would come to Calgary as he wanted to talk to me. He gave me no indication what this was about, so I talked with my dad and he told me I better jump on a plane and go out. I booked an early morning flight and arrived at Calgary about 7:30 AM. I had booked a return flight for 5 PM but when my flight was supposed to be leaving, we still have not discussed anything or seen any cattle. Sandy just drove around and told me story after story. He told me that there was four years in his life that he had no memory of, but from his records he could tell that he had been around the world three times in that period of time.( Sandy owned Calgary Brewery, which was not a good thing to own when you were an acoholic!)  I ended up staying with Sandy and Ann for another day, and we had a great time.

The reason Sandy wanted to visit with me, was that he wanted to sell me his entire herd and he was willing to sell them at $300 per cow. The main problem was that there was over 300 cows and I did not want 300 cows and did not have feed, pasture or money to buy 300 cows.We were running over 300 cows ourselves at the time.  He told me to get that price I had to take all the cows, and if I split more than 5 cows off, the price would then be $600 per cow for the remainder of them.  I politely turned down his offer. The next fall, I happened to see Sandy at Agribition, and he asked me why I had not purchased the cows? I told him I did not have the money to buy them and I did not have the feed I would need to winter them. He said" why didn't you say something to me? I certainly didn't need the money right away, and I certainly could have wintered them for you. "  I happen to know the man who purchased the cows and he agreed to purchase the herd if Sandy would keep them until spring. When spring arrived, the cattle markets had improved and he sold about 1/2 the cows in some local bred cow sales and virtually paid for the other 150 head that he then shipped to his ranch.

The Rothney / Sandy Cross story could be made into a great movie. The Glenbow museum in Calgary has many of Sandy Cross 's artifacts including all his registration papers for his Shorthorn, Galloway and Luing cattle from 1947 to 1993. All his farm accounting books, financial statements for the ranch and cattle inventories and many other of his farm related artifacts are at the Glenbow. Some of these are available records are available on the internet.

There are many more stories that could be told about Sandy Cross. He did not marry until he was in his 70s and he found a wonderful lady who changed his life. When Sandy asked Ann to marry him, she said she would only consider it if he stopped drinking. He never had another drink of alcohol from that day forward. The Rothney Ranch was 7 miles by 7 miles in size in a block, and the city of Calgary was getting closer and closer and this was a major concern to Sandy and Ann. They did not want their beloved ranch covered with pavement and homes, so the formed a conservary and gifted a large part of the ranch to the Alberta government with the condition that it be retained as a nature conservatory area. If this had not been done there is no doubt that this beautiful ranch would now be an urban part of Calgary. I can not even imagine what that land would be worth today, but I am guessing it would be in the Billions.

 

Okotoks

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justintime said:
There are many more stories that could be told about Sandy Cross. He did not marry until he was in his 70s and he found a wonderful lady who changed his life. When Sandy asked Ann to marry him, she said she would only consider it if he stopped drinking. He never had another drink of alcohol from that day forward. The Rothney Ranch was 7 miles by 7 miles in size in a block, and the city of Calgary was getting closer and closer and this was a major concern to Sandy and Ann. They did not want their beloved ranch covered with pavement and homes, so the formed a conservary and gifted a large part of the ranch to the Alberta government with the condition that it be retained as a nature conservatory area. If this had not been done there is no doubt that this beautiful ranch would now be an urban part of Calgary. I can not even imagine what that land would be worth today, but I am guessing it would be in the Billions.
After Sandy sold that group of cows he continued on with a group of bred heifers building up his herd. In 1987 he held a dispersal sale. It wasn't well advertised but the cows went to several western canadian herds where they still have an influence. After the dispersal Sandy sold three cows and two heifers that were not in the sale to my Dad. There are descendeants of two of those females at Prospect Hills and at Moores and Kapers. the only family we have left is the Clippers. We also rented a winter pasture from Sandy in 1988 and I have attached a photo of our cows on top of one of the hills lokking towards Calgary. It was an open winter and my wife would go each week and bring home any cows that were close to cavling. The Rothney herd had a lot of influence.
 

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Hilltop

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I guess I should of listened better but now I am thinking it maybe was a Grandson of Higland Piper, and possibly from Bert Barnsley!
 

oakview

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All the talk about using 'native bulls' reminds me of the days when that's what we had.  The most noted Calrossie bulls I remember were Calrossie Diamond, I believe owned by Melbourne Farms, and Calrossie Diadem of Bilmar Farms.  I think many are making a mistake if they believe that calving problems in Shorthorn heifers is something new caused by Trump bloodlines.  I used Trump when he first came out and was readily available on heifers and got along fine.  I have used sons and grandsons of Trump, some crossed back on relatives, with absolutely no problem.  I did use a 'calving ease' son of Rider 844 and had a train wreck.  I think some are making a mistake if they think using 'native' bulls will solve all their calving ease problems.  Many of you aren't old enough to have had the pleasure of trying to get the square headed calves sired by these 'native' bulls out of the little, box shaped females of 'native' breeding.  If this was just a Shorthorn problem, by the way, then why was it one of the most prominent Hereford breeders in Iowa was using a Longhorn on their heifers the last thing I knew?  They sell more commercial bulls than almost anyone in Iowa.  I guess it kind of bothers me when people publicly trash other people's cattle.  If something works for you, then use it and be glad you don't have the problems you perceive everyone else to have.
 

justintime

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oakview said:
All the talk about using 'native bulls' reminds me of the days when that's what we had.  The most noted Calrossie bulls I remember were Calrossie Diamond, I believe owned by Melbourne Farms, and Calrossie Diadem of Bilmar Farms.  I think many are making a mistake if they believe that calving problems in Shorthorn heifers is something new caused by Trump bloodlines.  I used Trump when he first came out and was readily available on heifers and got along fine.  I have used sons and grandsons of Trump, some crossed back on relatives, with absolutely no problem.  I did use a 'calving ease' son of Rider 844 and had a train wreck.  I think some are making a mistake if they think using 'native' bulls will solve all their calving ease problems.  Many of you aren't old enough to have had the pleasure of trying to get the square headed calves sired by these 'native' bulls out of the little, box shaped females of 'native' breeding.  If this was just a Shorthorn problem, by the way, then why was it one of the most prominent Hereford breeders in Iowa was using a Longhorn on their heifers the last thing I knew?  They sell more commercial bulls than almost anyone in Iowa.  I guess it kind of bothers me when people publicly trash other people's cattle.  If something works for you, then use it and be glad you don't have the problems you perceive everyone else to have.

Lonny, I could not agree more!!  I bothers me when I read the comments about certain lines being ALL cow killers. As I have stated before, two Rodeo Drive sons used here, were amongst the easiest calving sires we have used. I am old enough to remember calving those square headed little creatures and while some of them probably had fairly reasonable BWs, I remember having as many or more calving problems than I do today. Seems like some forget that calf shape has something to do with calving ease. If one calf is two inches longer bodied than another calf, it will definitely be heavier at birth, while they both may be born as easily.  When the Red Angus breed became the " flavor of the day" to breed heifers to, a few years ago, I  assisted my vet with a C- section on a Red Angus sired calf that weighed 72 lbs. It's head was the widest part of it's body. I am not bashing the Red Angus breed, as they have done as good a job as anyone in correcting some problems.

I have also used some Trump lines and have had absolutely zero calving problems. I have not used as many as many others have, and maybe I have been lucky. That said, it is a known fact that there are some calving issues with some of these lines.... but that does not mean that all of them will. I have had larger calves from some calving ease sires than I have expected. I have Gizmo semen in my tank yet, and if I based my thinking on the only two calves I have had from him, I would consider him to be a poor calving sire. I have only had two Gizmo sired calves, both were bulls and one was 120 lbs and the  other was 115 lbs. Both were excellent calves but both were banded at birth. I know these calves were exceptions to the rule and probably their dams were most of the problem. The sire usually takes most of the blame, and I am in no way trying to blame Gizmo for this happening.
 

Okotoks

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Grant mentions bulls being sold by Calrossie in the mid 1950 for $18000. That would be $146,425.30 tday if you run it through an inflation calculator.
Pretty discoraging if you run today's commodity prices through it versus todays costs! Example 50 cent steers from the fifties would be $4.07 today
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ is one website and
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
Just fun to try a few prices!
 

oakview

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I have a barn, but no video camera.  I have no cooler.  The last C-section I did was sired by a bull with a negative BEPD out of a heifer from 'calving ease' lines.  We show some calves for the fun of it and try not to take it too seriously.  We sell the bulls we keep mostly to commercial breeders and they are very happy with them.  In fact, the owner of one of the bulls we sold this spring happens to live on a highway and has had several people he didn't know stop by just to look at the bull after several months on pasture.  Yes, he is a double Trump grandson and is holding his flesh just fine, thank you.  This is the third bull this person has purchased from me, two of which were Trump descndants.  There are cattle that are capable of being competitive in the showring that can also compete in the pasture.  My quest is to find and use them.
 

aj

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I talked to one guy a couple months back....he told me a semen company......I think ABS.....can't remember.........anyway he said if the studs customers tried this bull they would never use a Shorthorn bull again in their lives because he was a cow killer. If this is the case how can we ever get our foot in the door in the mainstream? We just turn our heads and try and ignore the bw't deal.jmo
 

RedBulls

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JIT or Okotoks. What do you guys know about an old Wise bred bull named Boa Kae Royal Oak? Dan-your Prophesy bull looks good. Let me know when you have semen available.
 

Okotoks

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RedBulls said:
JIT or Okotoks. What do you guys know about an old Wise bred bull named Boa Kae Royal Oak? 

Boa Kae Royal Oak was used by Bennett's. His full brother Boa Kae Royal Oak 2nd was used by Rothney Farms and one of his sons by Sangaamon Farms,New York, Rothney Braw Bob.
One of our foundation cows Susan 86Z was by a half brother Boe kae Monarch 2nd but that was 1969. Ralph Peterson cactus Flat bought the Boa Kae herd and told me after only a few short years he had no descendants left. I figure ralph had one of the best herds ever in Alberta. The Boa Kae name comes from Boake as Lita Wise is a sister to Bud and Bill Boake. The Wise's raised great Maine Anjou for many years.
A great bull that was half dual and by a Boa Kae bull was B.anner Ryal Oak of John Boakes.
I am not sure what this bull would do crossed on today's cattle. i like a lot of the old bulls but we have some very good cattle today, probably most have a lot more performance.
 

Hilltop

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aj said:
I talked to one guy a couple months back....he told me a semen company......I think ABS.....can't remember.........anyway he said if the studs customers tried this bull they would never use a Shorthorn bull again in their lives because he was a cow killer. If this is the case how can we ever get our foot in the door in the mainstream? We just turn our heads and try and ignore the bw't deal.jmo
A cow killer or hard calver? Curious to know what bull it was as ABS has had very few Shorthorn bulls the last number of years.
 

justintime

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aj said:
I think it bothers people when the giant disconnect between showring cattle and the industry as a whole. I think the showring people think they are leaders of the industry when(I'm going to say 60% couldn't perform in the real world). It makes them uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. There is such a disconect anymore. Always has been. Natural selection is the key. NATURAL SELECTION. All lines will have indiviuals that work. Just seems like video cameras in barns,coolers,c-sections and whatnot may not be a step in the commercial cattle direction.

I will agree with you aj, in regards to the giant disconnect between showring cattle and the industry as a whole. I do wish they were closer. I will also say that there is less disconnect between the show ring and the commercial industry here in Canada and I truely believe this is true in the US at the local show level.  I also do not want any younger reader to read this and think that this disconnect between show ring cattle and the commercial sector is a recent thing that has happened. I believe it is no different now than it was 50-60 years ago.  maybe just some different technique are used.

I am old enough to remember the barns at the back of every fair ground, where all the Holstien and Jersey nurse cows were stalled. I remember many exhibitors having two year old bulls nursing two or three of these cows. Most likely these cows were bred to the bulls that were nursing them. I can also remember the cattle that were surgically altered to be more presentable in the show ring. Some well known breeders of that day routinely operated on their show herds and lowered the flank so it would be lower. I personally used to go around the barns when no one was around and run my hand on the insider of the flanks of many show cattle and I felt the scars where they were sown up. I remember old time breeders, telling me that I should tap my animals tail heads and loan areas with a stick for a few hours every day. They said that this would allow the hide to seperate from the body so that you could add water to this area easier. This is something I never did or ever wanted to do. I remember one old breeder telling me that if the animal swells a little from this process, it is OK and it can help make the animal look fuller.

When I was 14 years old,. my dad felt that part of my education should be to work part time at some other farms, so I was put on a bus and sent to work at a well known operation for 2-3 weeks. I did this for 3 years as soon as I was out of school in June. I then came home to head out with my dad on the show circuit here for a few weeks. One of my first jobs at this farm, which had an amazing commercial following, was chopping potatoes and mixing them with boiled barley and oats for ALL the cattle, not only the show herd. This was a herd with over 400 cows at the time, and they had large self feeders in the pastures all summer long. The cows were as fat as any I have ever seen. Another job I was given was to go into the pastures with a sprayer full of disinfectant and I was to spray between the gobs of fat on many of the cows to prevent maggots and to reduce the smell of rot that sometimes occurred. It was just as gross as it sounds.

I can remember the rivalry between breeders, and I think it was far beyond anything I experience today. So, what I am saying is, there has always been a disconnect between this show ring and the commercial sector... always has been and probably always will be. That said, I don't think it is right to say that the show ring is all bad and has not place. If it has no place in the real world, I find it interesting that all the big producers who raise commercial bulls ( in all breeds) are always front and center at the shows. I also find it interesting that some of the biggest commercial bull sale catalogs I get, have sons or grandsons selling from some recent Denver, or National Champion sire. This happens in all breeds. I would be much happier if we could just start to show more breeding stock than have to breed show stock. There are  many show cattle today that will work anywhere. Just because they were picked by someone to be fluffed and puffed for a few months of their lives does not mean they are of no earthy good for anything. As with many things in life, we have to pick the parts of our industry that work for us and forget about the rest. Maybe someone else can make some of the others work for them.... and some will end up being of no real breeding value... just like in the commercial industry.

There are some operations today with huge commercial followings that run their herds about as far from real world conditions as is possible. I am not going to name names, but I can think of some in about 5 breeds that sell literally hundreds of commercial bulls every year, and I would say the creep feeders on these places never go dry.
 
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