Shorty hf bulls

[aj]

PM me the huge commercial sale catalogs people that sell sons of national champs. I bought a bull from Larry Crousaint a few years back. I can gaurentee there were no national champs in these pedigrees. Basically everything went back to Becton. I would submit that you can't have it both ways. The seedstock business is to competitive. You either strive for a balance of econmic traits or you dont. Bone is terrible on calving ease. Maximizing WDA is terrible on calving ease and worse yet fleshing ability. There will be anedotal evidence of some crossover and my area must be way different than your area. I forgot to mention Larry was the Red Angus breeder of the year couple years back. You cannot compete in Shorthorn shows without big BWT cattle. You cannot do it.

 

[Aussie]

This is a great thread great to hear about "the old days and characters" I only started reading when you got to page 4 as I was not interested in shorty hf bulls. Sorry to crash your club but it is great to hear from knowledgeable cattle people. Thanks  Should be called somethink else
(clapping)

 

[aj]

Top 10 Canadian bulls of all time?

 

[justintime]

PM me the huge commercial sale catalogs people that sell sons of national champs. I bought a bull from Larry Crousaint a few years back. I can gaurentee there were no national champs in these pedigrees. Basically everything went back to Becton. I would submit that you can't have it both ways. The seedstock business is to competitive. You either strive for a balance of econmic traits or you dont. Bone is terrible on calving ease. Maximizing WDA is terrible on calving ease and worse yet fleshing ability. There will be anedotal evidence of some crossover and my area must be way different than your area. I forgot to mention Larry was the Red Angus breeder of the year couple years back. You cannot compete in Shorthorn shows without big BWT cattle. You cannot do it.

I am not trying to argue with your point of view. I am just saying that I get a pile of Angus, Charolais and Simmental bull sale catalogs and I would say that almost all of them have grandsons or sometimes sons of show winners. Almost all of these sales cater to their commercial bull buyers. Personally, I am glad there is at least that much connect between the show ring and the commercial sector.  Nothing is perfect in either part of our industry and what works for one outfit, may not work for another. We all have to study our lessons and pick and choose. Hopefully most of our decisions work for us. I will take today's show ring practices over yesteryear's 9 times out of 10. Back then was when there really was no connect with the real world.

 

[justintime]

JIT or Okotoks. What do you guys know about an old Wise bred bull named Boa Kae Royal Oak? Dan-your Prophesy bull looks good. Let me know when you have semen available.
[/quote







I have semen from Banner Royal Oak, who was a grandson of Boe Kae Royal Oak 2nd. Banner Royal Oak was sired by Boa Kae Trailmaker and his dam was a dual purpose cow that came out of Ontario named Blue Rock Roan Lily 2nd.

Okotoks .... I could not agree more about Ralph Peterson's Cactus Flat herd. That was one of the best set of cows I ever saw in Alberta, with the only exception being your herd of course!! Ralph was another character that deserves a chapter in a history book some time. You did not have to be with him many minutes to see the genuine love he had for his cattle. He raised his Shorthorn cows long after most people would have retired and tried to relax for a while. He was still raising some Shorthorns when he was on an oxygen bottle full time  for a few years. He was another guy that you had a hard time to get away from once the visit started.  A great guy who had a great set of cows. One of the things I appreciated the most about Ralph was he was genuine and he was also unbiased. He was not afraid to use a new bloodline, if he thought it would offer some improvement to his herd regardless of it's background or where it came from. He was a good, honest, decent man who I would call a true livestock breeder and improver. He had hands and a face that looked like they were made of weathered leather, and I don't know if I can ever remember seeing him without his cowboy hat on. Inside his tough exterior was a gentle man.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

PM me the huge commercial sale catalogs people that sell sons of national champs. I bought a bull from Larry Crousaint a few years back. I can gaurentee there were no national champs in these pedigrees. Basically everything went back to Becton. I would submit that you can't have it both ways. The seedstock business is to competitive. You either strive for a balance of econmic traits or you dont. Bone is terrible on calving ease. Maximizing WDA is terrible on calving ease and worse yet fleshing ability. There will be anedotal evidence of some crossover and my area must be way different than your area. I forgot to mention Larry was the Red Angus breeder of the year couple years back. You cannot compete in Shorthorn shows without big BWT cattle. You cannot do it.

if you want to see a sale that bulls are sold to many different commercial customers and sells bulls to the top AI studs in the country and have national champions in the bloodlines  SAV in North Dakota.  It is possible.  Maybe not in our breed right now but soon I hope. 

 

[Hilltop]

You cannot compete in Shorthorn shows without big BWT cattle. You cannot do it.

What are big BW? 90lbs? 95lbs? 100? 110? 120?

 

[justintime]

You cannot compete in Shorthorn shows without big BWT cattle. You cannot do it.

What are big BW? 90lbs? 95lbs? 100? 110? 120?

And please inform us of the BWs of all the class winners, or better yet, the BWs of the top 3 in each class, at the most recent National show and National Junior Heifer shows. Just how freakish big are these show cattle at birth. We had a pretty competitive two year old bull in Denver this year that had an 82 lb birth weight, and he is siring low BW calves. I am not saying there aren't some show cattle that are big at birth, but I am not convinced that it is impossible to show a lower BW animal. Seems to me that the female that won the National Junior show and was also Reserve National Champion in Denver, had a very moderate BW. Is she the only exception?

 

[Okotoks]

Top 10 Canadian bulls of all time?

This would be my list for today for bulls born in Canada. there are a lot that could be added. what about the top tne US bulls of all time?
Killearn Max Juggler
Kinnaber Leader 6th
Newbiggon Supreme
Canadian Image
Huberdale Mastercharge 42T
Einomor Mr Gus 80C
Muridale Buster 14K
Wolf Willow Major Leroy IM
Glenford captain Pete 75P
Alta Cedar Prairie Storm 47R

 

[aj]

I haven't been to a national show in a couple years. You tell me what they were. I had people tell me the unwritten rule with Shorthorn show cattle is that you call a calf that weighed 110#s at birth a 90# pounder on the papers.That is what I have heard. There have been discussions on this very board about how you can't compete in the Shorthorn cattle classes unless you lie about the birth date by 30 days. Unless I saw the calf weighed I will take every bwt I see reported by the show guys with a grain of salt. You tell me what a big birth weight is. Is the honest version or real version? If I had to come up with a arbritrary bwt number to cull seedstock at, I would cut bulls at 100#s and not keep back heifers with birth weights over 95#. I don't even know who won the Junior heifer deal. I don't know who weighed the calf. You tell me. I am saying the Shorthorn breed has a hellish BWt problem. It is masive in scope. You show me data otherwise and not antedotal evidence. Everybody on this board knows the breed has a bwt problem except the people who are trying to ignore it. The people that try and ignore it are the people you are trying to sell cattle to. Shazam imagine you taking the stand your taking on this issue. If you throw out the antedotal evidence you are backing a intellectually dishonest side of the arguement.jmo

 

[Okotoks]

I haven't been to a national show in a couple years. You tell me what they were. I had people tell me the unwritten rule with Shorthorn show cattle is that you call a calf that weighed 110#s at birth a 90# pounder on the papers.That is what I have heard. There have been discussions on this very board about how you can't compete in the Shorthorn cattle classes unless you lie about the birth date by 30 days. Unless I saw the calf weighed I will take every bwt I see reported by the show guys with a grain of salt. You tell me what a big birth weight is. Is the honest version or real version? If I had to come up with a arbritrary bwt number to cull seedstock at, I would cut bulls at 100#s and not keep back heifers with birth weights over 95#. I don't even know who won the Junior heifer deal. I don't know who weighed the calf. You tell me. I am saying the Shorthorn breed has a hellish BWt problem. It is masive in scope. You show me data otherwise and not antedotal evidence. Everybody on this board knows the breed has a bwt problem except the people who are trying to ignore it. The people that try and ignore it are the people you are trying to sell cattle to. Shazam imagine you taking the stand your taking on this issue. If you throw out the antedotal evidence you are backing a intellectually dishonest side of the arguement.jmo

There are birth weight issues in more than just the shorthorn breed. The trouble with the show ring is it all becomes about the ribbons for a lot of people. For some competitors suddenly it's not about displaying your breeding program so people can see what you are producing but it's about excessive feed, fitting, and even using the scalpel and drugs or any other tactic that gets the prize.
Of course some poor buyer pruchases an animal like that and there is no way they will reproduce their type. These same people don't care if the calf comes out the side as long as it wins the show.
At the same time there's a lot of good animals being shown by honest people that will do well in the ring and for the buyer. It's really important to be able to figure out the difference, and that is not always easy!

 

[justintime]

Top 10 Canadian bulls of all time?

This would be my list for today for bulls born in Canada. there are a lot that could be added. what about the top tne US bulls of all time?
Killearn Max Juggler
Kinnaber Leader 6th
Newbiggon Supreme
Canadian Image
Huberdale Mastercharge 42T
Einomor Mr Gus 80C
Muridale Buster 14K
Wolf Willow Major Leroy IM
Glenford captain Pete 75P
Alta Cedar Prairie Storm 47R

Dan you forgot one important bull from your list... at least in my opinion.. and that is Diamond Captain Mark 27C. IMO, he is one of the best kept secrets in the breed, and maybe one of the best breeding sires of the past few decades.

I am going to try to finish baling my tame hay today, and will try to come up with my list of all time great Canadian sires. 

In regards to the comments about show people automatically reporting a 110 lb BW as 90 lbs, that suggests that all people who walk into a show ring are dishonest. I know of many very honest people in Canada AND the US who make accurate reporting, and are as honest as can be found anywhere. There are dishonest people in every breed, and I suspect there are even a few in the real world of commercial production of beef. 

 

[Hilltop]

I at times wonder also about the BW and dates of cattle but I would not suggest that many Shorthorn breeders are changing dates and BW numbers just for the show ring. If so are breeeders from various other breeds doing this or are we the only dishonest breed?  I hope the days of January calves eating hay by Christmas is gone. When we have to change BW's and dates to win will be the end of us showing. We have 3 heifer calves that we talked about showing but they are born 6 days apart and knew they would probably end up in the same class. We could of changed the birthday on 2 of them before we registered but will leave one at home and work with a calf that is 15 days younger. Their BW's are 92, 98, and 101lbs. Is this freakish big? The two bull calves we plan on showing are 88, and 103 lbs,U out of 1500-1600lb cows. Our yearling heifer that was National Junior Champion for our daughter was 93lbs at birth and have had comments from many commercial and purebred breeders of various breeds that she is the best heifer they have seen this summer. My daughters yearling bull that we hope to show this fall had a BW of 91 lbs and we will have over 20 calves from him in 2011 including a few heifers. Would we keep or use a 110lb bull now? Not knowingly. This may be the wrong attitude but if we have a very good female with 110lb bw we are going to give her a try. Will it backfire?? Maybe. I can say right now that it is not economical for us in our situation to be calving out all 70lb calves. I do not want to be pulling calves from cows either but we are looking to meet in the middle. This is not something we can change overnight or something that one breeder can change on his own. I do not believe we are ignoring it unless keeping a 100lb BW replacement is ignoring. There has been and will always be in all breeds people that do not worry about BW. All we can do is try to work togther and meet in the middle.

 

[aj]

Atta boy jit. Plant your feet firmly. Work both sides of the fence. Never take a stand. Tell people what they want to hear. Never definitely say anything and no one will be offended. Talk in vague generalizations. Wait till your buyer is in front of you and get his position and then take a stand.

 

[aj]

The Canadian bull"New biggon Canadian Bacon Image bull" is a good one I think.

 

[tucker]

the beef improvement federation. aka b.i.f. releases a across breed epd. the shorthorn breed is 6.1 the charolais is 9.7 the simmental 5.5  maine 5.5 gerts 8.1 braunview 7.5 brahman 11.2 beefmaster  7.7 etc. my point being the charlolais at 9.7  and simmental at 5.5  both have a significant commercial bull market. yet the shorthorns do not.   my opinion is the shorthorn breeders in the u.s. that focus on commercial bull production are not up to par on quality,there is alot of red harder doing thin hided shorthorns produced  by this segment. b.w. is not the reason market share laggs. its plain and simple ,its quality. - the 1350 lbs. commercial angus cow needs a punch of real world performence. 2 years ago i walked through all the shorthorn bulls in the yards show two thirds of them was too small framed and lacked real  world perfomence, they looked to be club calf sized bulls. the best shorthorn cattle i seen that year in denver    was the cattle being shown on the hill. they had great body and perfect size for the real world  i liked them quite a bit.  lots of shorthorn breeders  chatting on this board trying to make excuses and blame others for not being able to sell your product. i will say it again -if u raise good cattle people will come.if there is no demand for your cattle  you should  try to change them . as my grandpa used to say- hard to sell them to yourself and make a living.  

 

[Hilltop]

the beef improvement federation. aka b.i.f. releases a across breed epd. the shorthorn breed is 6.1 the charolais is 9.7 the simmental 5.5  maine 5.5 gerts 8.1 braunview 7.5 brahman 11.2 beefmaster  7.7 etc. my point being the charlolais at 9.7  and simmental at 5.5  both have a significant commercial bull market. yet the shorthorns do not.   my opinion is the shorthorn breeders in the u.s. that focus on commercial bull production are not up to par on quality,there is alot of red harder doing thin hided shorthorns produced  by this segment. b.w. is not the reason market share laggs. its plain and simple ,its quality. - the 1350 lbs. commercial angus cow needs a punch of real world performence. 2 years ago i walked through all the shorthorn bulls in the yards show two thirds of them was too small framed and lacked real  world perfomence, they looked to be club calf sized bulls. the best shorthorn cattle i seen that year in denver    was the cattle being shown on the hill. they had great body and perfect size for the real world  i liked them quite a bit.  lots of shorthorn breeders  chatting on this board trying to make excuses and blame others for not being able to sell your product. i will say it again -if u raise good cattle people will come.if there is no demand for your cattle  you should  try to change them . as my grandpa used to say- hard to sell them to yourself and make a living.  

So unless I read this wrong it is saying we do not have a "HELLISH" BW issue in the Shorthorn breed?

 

[jaimiediamond]

The Canadian bull"New biggon Canadian Bacon Image bull" is a good one I think.

I think AJ that you might be confusing herd names with animal names and adding our great Canadian pork... Easy mistake

 

[tucker]

iam saying that charl.  have a good bull market  and have more b.w. issues then horns . iam  saying simms have  close to the same  b.w. issues and still have a good bull market. the b.w. in horns are not the  main reason your not thrivng commercially in the u.s ,  thats just my opinion. 

 

[OKshorthorn]

Atta boy jit. Plant your feet firmly. Work both sides of the fence. Never take a stand. Tell people what they want to hear. Never definitely say anything and no one will be offended. Talk in vague generalizations. Wait till your buyer is in front of you and get his position and then take a stand.

Dude, why is this necessary? It looks like you have some sort of inferiority complex to JIT's success and are trying to pick apart each of his post and respond childishly. Maybe I am missing something and you are just playing devils advocate to everything he says and you guys laugh about it later but from the outside looking in, it's fairly obvious to which side of the discussion the intellect resides.

Apart from AJ's input I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, I really enjoyed reading about the history of the breed and the stories that have been told. Thanks! Definitely gives someone just starting out pinnacle to aspire too.