Shorty hf bulls

[Okotoks]

8C is certainly up there as one of my all time favourites. I guess after seeing 2M, and his calves, that just reaffirmed it.

I'm not disputing you had some weight in the calves JIT, I guess it just shows how different genetic mixes get different results. There's no "safe bet", ever. There's a number of bulls in Aus that people swear by and think are the best thing going, but I wouldn't touvh them with a 50ft pole!! It's really interesting to see the mixed results people get, I guess that's what makes this game so much fun!

Thunderdownunder,

I have to completely agree with your statement regarding "Genetic Mix".

I find it interesting how one herd can have drastically different results from one sire versus your neighbour down the road using the same bull.

For example,

Several years ago, my father and I bred a group of females to AF SL Sin City, he was advertised with a low birth weight, had a tight and neat shoulder with lots of angle in his catalogue photo and looked had an attractive and streamlined skull, looked like he would calve easily! We used him primarily on heifers and guess what? He did calve easy! Very easy! Never touched one of them, very reasonable birthweights, calves up and going quickly,  no issues what so ever.

However, we never had much power or performance out of those calves and I don't think we ever even registered one? It was just sort of an "ok, he is a decent heifer bull, let's just leave it at that".

Talking with other breeders though, some commented on monstrous birthweights and calving issues. We were shocked to hear this!

Also I have seen some VERY big framed and high performing cattle out of this bull that looked like a polar opposite of the results in our herd.

My only explanation....

Different genetic mix clicking a different way.

Mix blue and yellow, you get green.

Mix yellow and red, you get orange.

Go figure!

It is a little strange how that works but then it's one of the challenges of genetics. I like doing linebreeding but one needs to be careful that what you are creating will also work on other lines. It seems as well that throughout the history of the breed great bulls come along, some the result of complete outcrosses, that are very prepotent on almost every cross they are used on.

 

[kfacres]

8C is certainly up there as one of my all time favourites. I guess after seeing 2M, and his calves, that just reaffirmed it.

I'm not disputing you had some weight in the calves JIT, I guess it just shows how different genetic mixes get different results. There's no "safe bet", ever. There's a number of bulls in Aus that people swear by and think are the best thing going, but I wouldn't touvh them with a 50ft pole!! It's really interesting to see the mixed results people get, I guess that's what makes this game so much fun!

Thunderdownunder,

I have to completely agree with your statement regarding "Genetic Mix".

I find it interesting how one herd can have drastically different results from one sire versus your neighbour down the road using the same bull.

For example,

Several years ago, my father and I bred a group of females to AF SL Sin City, he was advertised with a low birth weight, had a tight and neat shoulder with lots of angle in his catalogue photo and looked had an attractive and streamlined skull, looked like he would calve easily! We used him primarily on heifers and guess what? He did calve easy! Very easy! Never touched one of them, very reasonable birthweights, calves up and going quickly,  no issues what so ever.

However, we never had much power or performance out of those calves and I don't think we ever even registered one? It was just sort of an "ok, he is a decent heifer bull, let's just leave it at that".

Talking with other breeders though, some commented on monstrous birthweights and calving issues. We were shocked to hear this!

Also I have seen some VERY big framed and high performing cattle out of this bull that looked like a polar opposite of the results in our herd.

My only explanation....

Different genetic mix clicking a different way.

Mix blue and yellow, you get green.

Mix yellow and red, you get orange.

Go figure!

It is a little strange how that works but then it's one of the challenges of genetics. I like doing linebreeding but one needs to be careful that what you are creating will also work on other lines. It seems as well that throughout the history of the breed great bulls come along, some the result of complete outcrosses, that are very prepotent on almost every cross they are used on.

but what works the best, is when those prepotent genetics are utilized in the highly thought after linebred programs. 

 

[jaimiediamond]

8C is certainly up there as one of my all time favourites. I guess after seeing 2M, and his calves, that just reaffirmed it.

I'm not disputing you had some weight in the calves JIT, I guess it just shows how different genetic mixes get different results. There's no "safe bet", ever. There's a number of bulls in Aus that people swear by and think are the best thing going, but I wouldn't touvh them with a 50ft pole!! It's really interesting to see the mixed results people get, I guess that's what makes this game so much fun!

Thunderdownunder,

I have to completely agree with your statement regarding "Genetic Mix".

I find it interesting how one herd can have drastically different results from one sire versus your neighbour down the road using the same bull.

For example,

Several years ago, my father and I bred a group of females to AF SL Sin City, he was advertised with a low birth weight, had a tight and neat shoulder with lots of angle in his catalogue photo and looked had an attractive and streamlined skull, looked like he would calve easily! We used him primarily on heifers and guess what? He did calve easy! Very easy! Never touched one of them, very reasonable birthweights, calves up and going quickly,  no issues what so ever.

However, we never had much power or performance out of those calves and I don't think we ever even registered one? It was just sort of an "ok, he is a decent heifer bull, let's just leave it at that".

Talking with other breeders though, some commented on monstrous birthweights and calving issues. We were shocked to hear this!

Also I have seen some VERY big framed and high performing cattle out of this bull that looked like a polar opposite of the results in our herd.

My only explanation....

Different genetic mix clicking a different way.

Mix blue and yellow, you get green.

Mix yellow and red, you get orange.

Go figure!

It is a little strange how that works but then it's one of the challenges of genetics. I like doing linebreeding but one needs to be careful that what you are creating will also work on other lines. It seems as well that throughout the history of the breed great bulls come along, some the result of complete outcrosses, that are very prepotent on almost every cross they are used on.

but what works the best, is when those prepotent genetics are utilized in the highly thought after linebred programs. 

Perhaps due to the fact that it is the end of pay period (taking a mental break) and I have been crunching numbers for multiple hours, but this makes little to no sense to me could you please reword it!!! My mushy brain can not determine what you mean!

 

[kfacres]

but what works the best, is when those prepotent genetics are utilized in the highly thought after linebred programs. 

Perhaps due to the fact that it is the end of pay period (taking a mental break) and I have been crunching numbers for multiple hours, but this makes little to no sense to me could you please reword it!!! My mushy brain can not determine what you mean!
[/quote]

By takiing the comment concerning how some bulls are prepotent in breeding ability, whether they come from linebred programs, or complete outcross-- it's amazing at how they continue to breed on despite theorires on how they wll, or should have bred on.  Like (Bull XYZ)
The true breeding prospects come from these "prepotent' breeding bulls- (regardless of parentage) when they are mated to females from linebred programs (Herd 123).  It's these operations that excell at life, and producing cattle.  Guarentee'd breeding bulls, mated to guarenteed breeding cows.  These are the matings that make bankers happy.
For instance- Bull XYZ who works on every cow ever mated to him from any color, or any breed  is mated to Herd 123, a very tightly linebred, highly prepotent set of females. Together, they create 100 XYZ123 calves, that are spitting images of each other, and breed on like a house of fire. 
It's bull calf XYZ123 that I'm going to want to use.  It's also Calves XYZ123 that I'm going to want to cash in on...

I don't think I did a very good job of explaning this...  Basically take that guarenteed breeding bull, mate him to an extremely linebred set of females.. and I want to be the one owning and selling the calves. 

 

[thunderdownunder]

but what works the best, is when those prepotent genetics are utilized in the highly thought after linebred programs. 

Perhaps due to the fact that it is the end of pay period (taking a mental break) and I have been crunching numbers for multiple hours, but this makes little to no sense to me could you please reword it!!! My mushy brain can not determine what you mean!

By takiing the comment concerning how some bulls are prepotent in breeding ability, whether they come from linebred programs, or complete outcross-- it's amazing at how they continue to breed on despite theorires on how they wll, or should have bred on.  Like (Bull XYZ)
The true breeding prospects come from these "prepotent' breeding bulls- (regardless of parentage) when they are mated to females from linebred programs (Herd 123).  It's these operations that excell at life, and producing cattle.  Guarentee'd breeding bulls, mated to guarenteed breeding cows.  These are the matings that make bankers happy.
For instance- Bull XYZ who works on every cow ever mated to him from any color, or any breed  is mated to Herd 123, a very tightly linebred, highly prepotent set of females. Together, they create 100 XYZ123 calves, that are spitting images of each other, and breed on like a house of fire. 
It's bull calf XYZ123 that I'm going to want to use.  It's also Calves XYZ123 that I'm going to want to cash in on...

I don't think I did a very good job of explaning this...  Basically take that guarenteed breeding bull, mate him to an extremely linebred set of females.. and I want to be the one owning and selling the calves. 
[/quote]

Or..... Bull XYZ is a fantastic sire for all these big and small herds across the country, but when used in Herd 123, it's a total trainwreck and every calf goes to the doggers and those at Herd123 go on a rampage bashing BullXYZ  ;D

 

[Okotoks]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down. I know some of the original fullblood Charolais had long gestations to go with the big birth weights. it seems a lot of Charolais have really improved calving ease. Did they use gestation length as a selection tool?

 

[thunderdownunder]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down.

Another important point to add to the list!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Just had to chime in to fill in information on what I know about 86G.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this information:  Last I knew-- I think 86G is deceased.  Also as far as I know there is not any semen for sale on the open market anymore.  I had heard that Studer's sold their final inventory to Sullivan's.  
I am still lucky enough to be in possession of several straws yet from past Studer sales when they would offer it.
I am going to hold it back and only use for flushes from now on.
I did use some of my inventory in heifers last summer and am expecting 3 calves this spring.
I also have some working Marquis 86G mommas in my herd and Marquis son that was used this past spring also.
I really like his calves and have had really good results with my Marquis cattle-- I would recommend him.
They are easy keepers, always in good flesh, and have nice udders.
Just sharing what I know about the line-- Studers have had lots of really good cattle out of the

I had heard the same thing but since I first heard it Shorthorn Shop has not taken him off from there and they have changed there website around since then also.  If Dale or John is on here maybe he can clear this up?  I would really like to know.  We have had 4 Marquis calves all bulls and they were all 80 lbs and under. 

 

[Okotoks]

Just had to chime in to fill in information on what I know about 86G.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this information:  Last I knew-- I think 86G is deceased.  Also as far as I know there is not any semen for sale on the open market anymore.  I had heard that Studer's sold their final inventory to Sullivan's.  
I am still lucky enough to be in possession of several straws yet from past Studer sales when they would offer it.
I am going to hold it back and only use for flushes from now on.
I did use some of my inventory in heifers last summer and am expecting 3 calves this spring.
I also have some working Marquis 86G mommas in my herd and Marquis son that was used this past spring also.
I really like his calves and have had really good results with my Marquis cattle-- I would recommend him.
They are easy keepers, always in good flesh, and have nice udders.
Just sharing what I know about the line-- Studers have had lots of really good cattle out of the

I had heard the same thing but since I first heard it Shorthorn Shop has not taken him off from there and they have changed there website around since then also.  If Dale or John is on here maybe he can clear this up?  I would really like to know.  We have had 4 Marquis calves all bulls and they were all 80 lbs and under. 

Too bad the semen is in limited supply. Do you know how he is working at Sullivans or is it too early for them to have calves?

 

[JoeBnTN]

There's a couple of interesting bulls that are service sires in the Sun Country sale that are what would qualify as heifer bulls. Hillside Leader from Horseshoe Creek and Muridale Bonanza 85W from Macbeth and Uluru. The HC Touchdown bull looks like he will also be a heifer bull.

We continue to be very satisfied with Leader as a calving ease sire. To date all calves have come unassisted and only one has been over 80 lbs.  What's starting to get us even more excited is the way the calves develop.  Below are two Leader heifer calves that we really like - the roan is a May out of a SS Deadwood 2-year old and was 6 mos old when this was taken.  The red heifer is a late July and is just starting to come together.  We would consider both of these as possible show heifers, even though they are out of a calving ease bull.  I think it just goes to show that good cattle can come in all kinds of packages and with different types of genetics.

 

[Doc]

There's a couple of interesting bulls that are service sires in the Sun Country sale that are what would qualify as heifer bulls. Hillside Leader from Horseshoe Creek and Muridale Bonanza 85W from Macbeth and Uluru. The HC Touchdown bull looks like he will also be a heifer bull.

We continue to be very satisfied with Leader as a calving ease sire. To date all calves have come unassisted and only one has been over 80 lbs.  What's starting to get us even more excited is the way the calves develop.  Below are two Leader heifer calves that we really like - the roan is a May out of a SS Deadwood 2-year old and was 6 mos old when this was taken.  The red heifer is a late July and is just starting to come together.  We would consider both of these as possible show heifers, even though they are out of a calving ease bull.  I think it just goes to show that good cattle can come in all kinds of packages and with different types of genetics.

Joe , They look good. They would look even better consigned to the 2011 TN Beef Agribition.

 

[JoeBnTN]

We might let one go, but not both! <cowboy>

 

[JTM]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down.

Another important point to add to the list!

I totally agree with this! This seems to be a pretty big issue in the Shorthorn breed right now. We have a lot of show genetics and it is not uncommon to have cows and heifers go almost 295 days or two weeks over. A lot of people have got into the habit of inducing labor if they know when the cow is due. We will not be doing that and haven't been. Most of the time when they are overdue the calves are extemely heavy (105 to 120lbs). I did have a heifer go over about two weeks and she had a heifer at about 80lbs. I have to say that in the last couple of years about 50% of the really late calves ended up coming out backwards which could have been the reason. These are just cases that I know are overdue and that were not a missed breeding, etc. I am really hoping that Star Bucks can take care of some of that, we will see...

 

[sue]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down.

Another important point to add to the list!

I totally agree with this! This seems to be a pretty big issue in the Shorthorn breed right now. We have a lot of show genetics and it is not uncommon to have cows and heifers go almost 295 days or two weeks over. A lot of people have got into the habit of inducing labor if they know when the cow is due. We will not be doing that and haven't been. Most of the time when they are overdue the calves are extemely heavy (105 to 120lbs). I did have a heifer go over about two weeks and she had a heifer at about 80lbs. I have to say that in the last couple of years about 50% of the really late calves ended up coming out backwards which could have been the reason. These are just cases that I know are overdue and that were not a missed breeding, etc. I am really hoping that Star Bucks can take care of some of that, we will see...

I am among the group who feels hard to breed is hard to calve. 

 

[scotland]

we find the Shorthorns an easy breed to calf and mother those babies. For years we have been involved with Angus, Simmental, Speckle Park, Shorthorn are easiest of the all to calf and handle. Our commerical bull buyers would attest to that.

 

[Okotoks]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down.

Another important point to add to the list!

I totally agree with this! This seems to be a pretty big issue in the Shorthorn breed right now. We have a lot of show genetics and it is not uncommon to have cows and heifers go almost 295 days or two weeks over. A lot of people have got into the habit of inducing labor if they know when the cow is due. We will not be doing that and haven't been. Most of the time when they are overdue the calves are extemely heavy (105 to 120lbs). I did have a heifer go over about two weeks and she had a heifer at about 80lbs. I have to say that in the last couple of years about 50% of the really late calves ended up coming out backwards which could have been the reason. These are just cases that I know are overdue and that were not a missed breeding, etc. I am really hoping that Star Bucks can take care of some of that, we will see...

Breeding programs are about selection and once you start selecting for a paticular trait you will probably get closer to where you want to be. If you address gestation then the birth wieghts will start to drop. We usually see our calves born between 283 to 286 days. Of course there are always outliers either way. If the bloodlines giving high BW are going 295 you are easily picking up 10 to 15 lbs. If Star Bucks shortens your gestation then you should see improvement. I wouldn't want to just select for birth weight. I think some of these longer gestations must be coming from the older full blood Maine Anjou that a lot of "shorthorns" are line bred to.

 

[Okotoks]

we find the Shorthorns an easy breed to calf and mother those babies. For years we have been involved with Angus, Simmental, Speckle Park, Shorthorn are easiest of the all to calf and handle. Our commerical bull buyers would attest to that.

I agree with this. I have never actually had a commercial buyer complain about birth weight. I have had them be pretty excited about the calves though and be repeat buyers.

 

[JTM]

In Australia they have an EBV for gestation length, you would think that would be a useful selection tool to help keep birth weights down.

Another important point to add to the list!

I totally agree with this! This seems to be a pretty big issue in the Shorthorn breed right now. We have a lot of show genetics and it is not uncommon to have cows and heifers go almost 295 days or two weeks over. A lot of people have got into the habit of inducing labor if they know when the cow is due. We will not be doing that and haven't been. Most of the time when they are overdue the calves are extemely heavy (105 to 120lbs). I did have a heifer go over about two weeks and she had a heifer at about 80lbs. I have to say that in the last couple of years about 50% of the really late calves ended up coming out backwards which could have been the reason. These are just cases that I know are overdue and that were not a missed breeding, etc. I am really hoping that Star Bucks can take care of some of that, we will see...

Thanks for the reply, Sue too. I agree that the 10-15 lbs are probably being added in those extra days. I have already culled three of the four that gave me that problem over the last two years and the other one was a heifer who calved to JPJ. She will be given some extra chances because she is too young.
Sue, can you elaborate on what you mean by "hard to breed means hard to calve"?
Breeding programs are about selection and once you start selecting for a paticular trait you will probably get closer to where you want to be. If you address gestation then the birth wieghts will start to drop. We usually see our calves born between 283 to 286 days. Of course there are always outliers either way. If the bloodlines giving high BW are going 295 you are easily picking up 10 to 15 lbs. If Star Bucks shortens your gestation then you should see improvement. I wouldn't want to just select for birth weight. I think some of these longer gestations must be coming from the older full blood Maine Anjou that a lot of "shorthorns" are line bred to.

 

[Okotoks]

There's a couple of interesting bulls that are service sires in the Sun Country sale that are what would qualify as heifer bulls. Hillside Leader from Horseshoe Creek and Muridale Bonanza 85W from Macbeth and Uluru. The HC Touchdown bull looks like he will also be a heifer bull.

We continue to be very satisfied with Leader as a calving ease sire. To date all calves have come unassisted and only one has been over 80 lbs.  What's starting to get us even more excited is the way the calves develop.  Below are two Leader heifer calves that we really like - the roan is a May out of a SS Deadwood 2-year old and was 6 mos old when this was taken.  The red heifer is a late July and is just starting to come together.  We would consider both of these as possible show heifers, even though they are out of a calving ease bull.  I think it just goes to show that good cattle can come in all kinds of packages and with different types of genetics.

When you look at the Elbee breeding and Matador on the top side it would seem Leader is breeding true and is real calving ease. Nice looking calves.

 

[sue]

JTM-

Hard to breed = hard to calve.

This comment does not pretain to any one bull or breed . But think about how many times have you turned out a group of young heifers of any breed. The heifers that settle the 1st and 2nd time are laying down have the calf . The 3rd, 4th and 5th times bred are  usually having the backward, upside down or just  they might have normal birth but never make a great mama. But guess who's the last to breed again and again.
I personally have selected for fertility and when you do that Alot comes along with it. Honestly are you going to keep the bull calf out of a female that is impossible to breed? 
Since when is fertility single trait selection ?? 

JTM - I think you're on the right track with Star Bucks