Shorty hf bulls

[trevorgreycattleco]

That Six S panther bull looks cool! He took a great pic in the sale catalog. Nice to see some good cows I didn't even know exsisted. Once again, thanks SP.
Ripper bull has turned out good, anxious to see how the cross works out.

 

[Okotoks]

That Six S panther bull looks cool! He took a great pic in the sale catalog. Nice to see some good cows I didn't even know exsisted. Once again, thanks SP.
Ripper bull has turned out good, anxious to see how the cross works out.

He left some good ones at Six S and now he's doing a great job at Matlock.
I have attached his photo and the link to Matlock's website.
http://matlockshorthorns.com/index.html 
Six S Panther 35P
  Eionmor Mr Gus 80C X
Sire: Eionmor Highlander 70G
    Eionmor Omen Ruby 46B


    Circle M Ghost Rider 10G
Dam: Norvyk Joedean Dottie 6J X
    Diamond Claret Dottie 63C
TH & PHA Free.

 

[sue]

The 034 daughters are easy-fleshing and are doing exactly what first calf heifers should do--milk, keep a close watch on the calves, etc.  They looked very broody ahead of calving and were springing heavily, so the unassisted births were not surprising.  034 has a lot of good things in one package--performance with calving ease, carcass quality, two of the all-time greats as grandsires, color, right-sized (as they say at Subaru when they make their cars fit us Americans), and a solid program behind him.  034 is an excellent fit in many ways.

Dale
I appreciate your comments. The daughters we have looked out from other herds all look the same- I say daughters because he seems to throw more females.

 

[sue]

That Six S panther bull looks cool! He took a great pic in the sale catalog. Nice to see some good cows I didn't even know exsisted. Once again, thanks SP.
Ripper bull has turned out good, anxious to see how the cross works out.

Yes. I have flipped through the catalog a few times. Creta forwarded the ultrasound on the females - very impressive. Ripper X Panther is just what I was thinking when they purchased him. It's a pyramid of great asterik free females. The fact they are offering red or mostly red Panther daughters is a bonus. Trevor I can forward if I didnt already?? True outcross offering.

 

[Okotoks]

That Six S panther bull looks cool! He took a great pic in the sale catalog. Nice to see some good cows I didn't even know exsisted. Once again, thanks SP.
Ripper bull has turned out good, anxious to see how the cross works out.

Yes. I have flipped through the catalog a few times. Creta forwarded the ultrasound on the females - very impressive. Ripper X Panther is just what I was thinking when they purchased him. It's a pyramid of great asterik free females. The fact they are offering red or mostly red Panther daughters is a bonus. Trevor I can forward if I didnt already?? True outcross offering.

Entire offering is TH Free. Haydock's were one of the first herds to test every animal.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Measuring gestation lengths is a big selling point of the gelbvieh breed.  If someone is serious about making productive/efficient cattle- it sure makes sense to have the most information as possible- whole reason I'm here.  There are plenty of horror stories floating around about every breed.  Since short horns are most popular in the show ring (at least my perception), and a lot of show ring animals have been bred to be brick houses- almost makes sense why there may be concern about calving ease  .  

Matter of fact, I was almost disowned by my dad for mentioning my plan to bring shorthorn influence in to our herd.  This was kind of a one chance type event, so I looked through a lot of information searching for as sure of a bet of a decent looking calving ease bull as I could find, then hoped the calves would grow and add some thickness.  I used Ar Su Lu Massive- I was interested in something out of Byland Goldspear with solid coloring.  

My experience (Please keep in mind this is a very small population):
These calves were smaller than any of the low birth wt angus bulls we have used.  And the couple I saw born, if you blinked you would have almost missed it.  They looked like jack rabbits.   Matter of fact, with a concerned look all Dad could say was "we'll have to just see how they grow".  Whew, glad they grew!

This is definately not every bull, but seems to me that some usefull genetics are out there.  While I'm at it...  Why is it always Durham reds?  What about some Durham Blacks? (lol)  

I wish that  carcass data was more available to the original producer- without having to retain ownership.  Then this would not be a concern.  In the mean time... I am likely just not informed, but to me the quickest way for some  breeders to get a bigger share of the market is to get some good black hided high percentage bulls out there.  Seems like the red angus and the red simmentals get noticed because of the black counterparts.

Actually, the market is demanding an english based, easy fleshing, black cow.  And after breeding EXT to Traveler and Traveler to EXT and Traveler to Traveler- a few new options would be good.  

OK, Sorry for getting off topic, disregard everything after.... they looked like jack rabbits.  

 

[sue]

Measuring gestation lengths is a big selling point of the gelbvieh breed.  If someone is serious about making productive/efficient cattle- it sure makes sense to have the most information as possible- whole reason I'm here.  There are plenty of horror stories floating around about every breed.  Since short horns are most popular in the show ring (at least my perception), and a lot of show ring animals have been bred to be brick houses- almost makes sense why there may be concern about calving ease  . 

Matter of fact, I was almost disowned by my dad for mentioning my plan to bring shorthorn influence in to our herd.  This was kind of a one chance type event, so I looked through a lot of information searching for as sure of a bet of a decent looking calving ease bull as I could find, then hoped the calves would grow and add some thickness.  I used Ar Su Lu Massive- I was interested in something out of Byland Goldspear with solid coloring. 

My experience (Please keep in mind this is a very small population):
These calves were smaller than any of the low birth wt angus bulls we have used.  And the couple I saw born, if you blinked you would have almost missed it.  They looked like jack rabbits.   Matter of fact, with a concerned look all Dad could say was "we'll, have to just see how they grow".  Whew, glad they grew!

This is definately not every bull, but seems to me that some usefull genetics are out there.  While I'm at it...  Why is it always Durham reds?  What about some Durham Blacks? 

I wish that  carcass data was more available to the original producer- without having to retain ownership.  Then this would not be a concern.  In the mean time... I am likely just not informed, but to me the quickest way for some  breeders to get a bigger share of the market is to get some good black hided high percentage bulls out there.  Seems like the red angus and the red simmentals get noticed because of the black counterparts.

Actually, the market is demanding an english based, easy fleshing, black cow.  And after breeding EXT to Traveler and Traveler to EXT and Traveler to Traveler- a few new options would be good. 

OK, Sorry for getting off topic, disregard everything after.... they looked like jack rabbits.   

Glad you posted. The breeder of 034 is using some Gelvieh in his commerical Shorthorn herd- he would be marketing a low percent Gelvieh,Short,RA bull in the end. To answer the question about Durham REd or Black- both are out there. Most feel like what your last comment was EXT X Traveler and TRaveler to EXT has been done again and again and now every Black composite is the same too.
We have had better luck with purebred SH bulls in the commerical sector. If you're looking for BlackX Shorthorn bulls or heifers PM me.

 

[Okotoks]

 I used Ar Su Lu Massive- I was interested in something out of Byland Goldspear with solid coloring.  
My experience (Please keep in mind this is a very small population):
These calves were smaller than any of the low birth wt angus bulls we have used.  And the couple I saw born, if you blinked you would have almost missed it.  They looked like jack rabbits.   Matter of fact, with a concerned look all Dad could say was "we'll have to just see how they grow".  Whew, glad they grew!

Good to know we can add Ar Su Lu Massive to our list of heifer bulls! I was actually looking at him as he is available in Canada. We used Byland Gold Spear and one of his sons gave us calving ease. After we were finished with him he went to a commercial Maine Anjou herd and they have had 4 crops of calves from heifers by him and they used him again this year. This on a ranch in the Alberta foothills where they run 250 plus cows.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Just to clarify a little better- by "small population", I meant the number of Massive's calves born.  We have a moderate 200 head cow/calf operation and  I'm pretty close to operations of several other family members that have decent sized cow/calf operations as well- so I have a decent sized population to compare to.  If you were interested in him, I would definately not be concerned with calving ease.  I have got a lot of good information off of this forum, and thought I would contribute back where I could.    

Sue, glad to see that you have some options.  I understand your point about all composites being the same- that is why I'm looking outside the box.  And I know that talking color change would also be diluting genetics- so I was not intending that toward the seed stock producers that most of the people on here probably are.  (I'm commenting off topic because of reading through the posts about trying to capture more market).  I believe there would be a nich (at least in our area).  If suscessful, it would drive full blood demand.  I really like your breed, but I have to sneek it in.  I was looking at some of the Dunloise cattle from Scottland and thought they looked like an opportunity to provide the color for some growthier shorthorns and be a pretty good outcross to a lot of black cattle here.  And I will tie it back into the discussion by saying it may give opportunity to moderate BW in some lines as well ??   This is probably blasphemy here, if so sorry.  :
   
I wouldn't want the core breed to change.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I don't know if they are still being used, but 20 years ago when we were showing horses all the show barns of the "big boys" had treadmills for their halter horses.   I've seen them used dozens of times in many different barns.

K State just closed its horse treadmill about 3 years ago. 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Walkers are still used regularly in the Thoroughbred training facilities....

JIT did you collect the Mist's Return bull?

 

[justintime]

Walkers are still used regularly in the Thoroughbred training facilities....

JIT did you collect the Mist's Return bull?

I have lots of Canadian qualified semen on Mist's Return. I don't have any left for the US. I did not think there would be a market for much semen in the US for a white horned full Irish Shorthorn bull. What I had sold two years ago. Since I sold out in the US I probably have had 20 requests for it. I think there is close to 500 doses of Canadian qualified semen left. Jaimie, I will trade you some Mist's Return for some Captain Mark 27C ..... do we have a deal???

 

[JoeBnTN]

Measuring gestation lengths is a big selling point of the gelbvieh breed.  If someone is serious about making productive/efficient cattle- it sure makes sense to have the most information as possible- whole reason I'm here.  There are plenty of horror stories floating around about every breed.  Since short horns are most popular in the show ring (at least my perception), and a lot of show ring animals have been bred to be brick houses- almost makes sense why there may be concern about calving ease  .  

Matter of fact, I was almost disowned by my dad for mentioning my plan to bring shorthorn influence in to our herd.  This was kind of a one chance type event, so I looked through a lot of information searching for as sure of a bet of a decent looking calving ease bull as I could find, then hoped the calves would grow and add some thickness.  I used Ar Su Lu Massive- I was interested in something out of Byland Goldspear with solid coloring.  

My experience (Please keep in mind this is a very small population):
These calves were smaller than any of the low birth wt angus bulls we have used.  And the couple I saw born, if you blinked you would have almost missed it.  They looked like jack rabbits.   Matter of fact, with a concerned look all Dad could say was "we'll have to just see how they grow".  Whew, glad they grew!

This is definately not every bull, but seems to me that some usefull genetics are out there.  While I'm at it...  Why is it always Durham reds?  What about some Durham Blacks? (lol)  

I wish that  carcass data was more available to the original producer- without having to retain ownership.  Then this would not be a concern.  In the mean time... I am likely just not informed, but to me the quickest way for some  breeders to get a bigger share of the market is to get some good black hided high percentage bulls out there.  Seems like the red angus and the red simmentals get noticed because of the black counterparts.

Actually, the market is demanding an english based, easy fleshing, black cow.  And after breeding EXT to Traveler and Traveler to EXT and Traveler to Traveler- a few new options would be good.  

OK, Sorry for getting off topic, disregard everything after.... they looked like jack rabbits.  

I would think your experience would be accurate. We own Massive's maternal brother - Matador - and we're seeing the exact same thing with these calves.  The only 90 lb. + calves we've had were out of big BW cows that have always had big calves.  But the big selling point for us is the "get up like jack rabbits" as these are the healthiest, most vigorous calves we've seen in some time. 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Walkers are still used regularly in the Thoroughbred training facilities....

JIT did you collect the Mist's Return bull?

I have lots of Canadian qualified semen on Mist's Return. I don't have any left for the US. I did not think there would be a market for much semen in the US for a white horned full Irish Shorthorn bull. What I had sold two years ago. Since I sold out in the US I probably have had 20 requests for it. I think there is close to 500 doses of Canadian qualified semen left. Jaimie, I will trade you some Mist's Return for some Captain Mark 27C ..... do we have a deal???

Sounds great to me... I will have to double check with Okotoks before we make it final and pm you.  We will be bringing all the Captain Mark semen up from the states after the 15th of this month due to the fact we sold all of our Canadian supply!

 

[Okotoks]

Walkers are still used regularly in the Thoroughbred training facilities....

JIT did you collect the Mist's Return bull?

I have lots of Canadian qualified semen on Mist's Return. I don't have any left for the US. I did not think there would be a market for much semen in the US for a white horned full Irish Shorthorn bull. What I had sold two years ago. Since I sold out in the US I probably have had 20 requests for it. I think there is close to 500 doses of Canadian qualified semen left. Jaimie, I will trade you some Mist's Return for some Captain Mark 27C ..... do we have a deal???

Sounds great to me... I will have to double check with Okotoks before we make it final and pm you.  We will be bringing all the Captain Mark semen up from the states after the 15th of this month due to the fact we sold all of our Canadian supply!

JIT - I'm in.

 

[Okotoks]

I'm bumping this thread back up as the more I look around the more options for lighter birth weight bulls I see.Take Studer's Big John and his sire, ROANOKE FLASHBACK 704. There's no sense whining about a problem without looking for solutions on how to fix it. There are a lot of options out there, some are popular some are relatively unknown but that's part of the fun of breeding livestock, identyfying the problems and finding the bloodlines that fix them.

 

[Okotoks]

KAPER 4508 from Kaper Shorthorns. He's by Kenmar President 26A with a birth weight EPD of
minus 1.9 and a CE of +7.6.
Lots of options and lots of good ones!

 

[justintime]

KAPER 4508 from Kaper Shorthorns. He's by Kenmar President 26A with a birth weight EPD of
minus 1.9 and a CE of +7.6.
Lots of options and lots of good ones!

I agree with you about there being some pretty good options out there for calving ease and lower BWs. It seems to me, that most everyone is talking lower BWs however, semen sales on these lower BW sires remains fairly limited. I can not understand why anyone would risk the future breeding ability of a good heifer by using a sire they are not sure of his calving ease. To me, it seems much more important to get your females producing and rebred. There are  many excellent choices for use on heifers ... or cows, if BW and calving ease are your concern. Why are many of these sires not being used more? Many of them are also excellent quality individuals.

In my own case, I probably get 10 phone calls to 1, asking if some of our higher BW bulls are safe for use on heifers, rather than just asking about our lower BW bulls. Why do people talk one thing..... and then try to do another?

 

[Okotoks]

KAPER 4508 from Kaper Shorthorns. He's by Kenmar President 26A with a birth weight EPD of
minus 1.9 and a CE of +7.6.
Lots of options and lots of good ones!

I agree with you about there being some pretty good options out there for calving ease and lower BWs. It seems to me, that most everyone is talking lower BWs however, semen sales on these lower BW sires remains fairly limited. I can not understand why anyone would risk the future breeding ability of a good heifer by using a sire they are not sure of his calving ease. To me, it seems much more important to get your females producing and rebred. There are  many excellent choices for use on heifers ... or cows, if BW and calving ease are your concern. Why are many of these sires not being used more? Many of them are also excellent quality individuals.

In my own case, I probably get 10 phone calls to 1, asking if some of our higher BW bulls are safe for use on heifers, rather than just asking about our lower BW bulls. Why do people talk one thing..... and then try to do another?

A lot of people don't seem to want to take a chance!
I went to the sire/dam search on the American Shorthorn Association website and searched the following parameters. Birth weight maximum 0(below breed average)
Weaning weight +15 minimum (above breed average)
Yearling weight +25 minimum (above breed average)
Milk: 0 minimum
I got 133 bulls that fall in this category. There are hundreds of options. I think people are ignoring the options because they don’t want to take a couple of generations to get where they need to be! A breeding program means you might have to introduce the traits you need then do a little selection. I’m not sure the use of artificial insemination is helping as much as it could. If it isn’t a well known name or bloodline people are not willing to use it. To me breeding is a constant search to get to the next level. Sometimes you have to back up and rethink what you are doing and where you are going.

 

[justintime]

KAPER 4508 from Kaper Shorthorns. He's by Kenmar President 26A with a birth weight EPD of
minus 1.9 and a CE of +7.6.
Lots of options and lots of good ones!

I agree with you about there being some pretty good options out there for calving ease and lower BWs. It seems to me, that most everyone is talking lower BWs however, semen sales on these lower BW sires remains fairly limited. I can not understand why anyone would risk the future breeding ability of a good heifer by using a sire they are not sure of his calving ease. To me, it seems much more important to get your females producing and rebred. There are  many excellent choices for use on heifers ... or cows, if BW and calving ease are your concern. Why are many of these sires not being used more? Many of them are also excellent quality individuals.

In my own case, I probably get 10 phone calls to 1, asking if some of our higher BW bulls are safe for use on heifers, rather than just asking about our lower BW bulls. Why do people talk one thing..... and then try to do another?

A lot of people don't seem to want to take a chance!
I went to the sire/dam search on the American Shorthorn Association website and searched the following parameters. Birth weight maximum 0(below breed average)
Weaning weight +15 minimum (above breed average)
Yearling weight +25 minimum (above breed average)
Milk: 0 minimum
I got 133 bulls that fall in this category. There are hundreds of options. I think people are ignoring the options because they don’t want to take a couple of generations to get where they need to be! A breeding program means you might have to introduce the traits you need then do a little selection. I’m not sure the use of artificial insemination is helping as much as it could. If it isn’t a well known name or bloodline people are not willing to use it. To me breeding is a constant search to get to the next level. Sometimes you have to back up and rethink what you are doing and where you are going.

I took a look at this list. There are some pretty interesting sires in this group, and semen is available on some of them. I am sure semen would be collected from more of them, if the owner's phones were ringing. I am also going to guess that the owners who have semen from the bulls in this catagory, will not be retiring anytime soon from the proceeds of their semen sales. Maybe you don't AI many heifers or cow. I would bet some of these owners would have bulls that are low BW and calving ease bulls. Guess what I am saying is that there are very viable options out there for most anyone. I do applaud the so called breed leaders who are trying to make some changes in this regard. I purchased a heifer in Sullivan's sale last fall, bred to their Meadow Lane bull that they used on a large group of heifers. The heifer calved unassisted in minutes and was rebred early. This is how it is supposed to work.

You are also 100% accurate on your comments about people not being willing to use anything but well known names and bloodlines. I see this all the time. I had several breeders actually laugh at me, when I told them that I had purchased Major Leroy. One very well known breeder asked me what a bull with a pedigree like his, could offer. I told him that a pedigree like his would offer some outcross genetics and that I had purchased him because of some of the economical traits he offered. As far as people searching for something that will take them to the next level, there aren't too many who think that far ahead. The true cattle breeders do this. The cattle multipliers don't... or don't very often.