Shorty hf bulls

[trevorgreycattleco]

Thanks for doing some homework. 133 bulls to choose from should be a great place to start. Personally I feel people need to have some confidence in their own breedings. Keep your cows and use your best bull on them. Doesn't matter if he is out of a hot A.I. bull or your cleanup. I used a black angus bull once for cleanup and he bred better than any A.I sire that year. I thought it was a fluke at the time. Practice some linebreeding and get something proven and then introduce it to the rest of us.
I think Cates was thinking outside the box when they began using Trump(their own bull) and look what happened. Promotion and commotion can confuse us all.


Okotoks or JIT, any way you could copy and paste that list for all to see?

 

[Okotoks]

Thanks for doing some homework. 133 bulls to choose from should be a great place to start. Personally I feel people need to have some confidence in their own breedings. Keep your cows and use your best bull on them. Doesn't matter if he is out of a hot A.I. bull or your cleanup. I used a black angus bull once for cleanup and he bred better than any A.I sire that year. I thought it was a fluke at the time. Practice some linebreeding and get something proven and then introduce it to the rest of us.
I think Cates was thinking outside the box when they began using Trump(their own bull) and look what happened. Promotion and commotion can confuse us all.


Okotoks or JIT, any way you could copy and paste that list for all to see?

Can't get it to copy but below is the website address. Every breeder will have different parameters, I was trying to see how many bulls with below average birth weights still had above average performance. That's where the 133 bulls came from. When I lowered my weaning and yearling wieghts a bit I got over 200!
You can enter the birth year as well if you are looking for a young bull. My grandfather used to often buy bulls that had daughters in production. Saved guessing about what he was going to get as replacements. That was way before AI was available and I think a lot of the better bulls would see service in 3 or 4 herds in their lifetime back then.

http://search.shorthorn.org/default.aspx
 

 

[aj]

If fertility and stayability are the most important traits? Why are they never mentioned as performance traits? It always seemed like to me selecting for "growth" was almost single trait selection. In my opinion the optimum cattle have lower weaning and yearling weights. If the Shorthorn breed is a maternal breed why wouldn't high yearling epds be a detriment? Shouldn't the terminal breeds concentrate on that?

 

[jaimiediamond]

If fertility and stayability are the most important traits? Why are they never mentioned as performance traits? It always seemed like to me selecting for "growth" was almost single trait selection. In my opinion the optimum cattle have lower weaning and yearling weights. If the Shorthorn breed is a maternal breed why wouldn't high yearling epds be a detriment? Shouldn't the terminal breeds concentrate on that?

Fertility and stayability are a trait that are easy to keep track of.  If I am looking for a new herd bull I will go online and see what his dam has done, and if she is a young cow his grand dam has done.  Then I take a look at his paternal grand dam and again if she was young her grand dam.  It takes time but honestly it is not a difficult procedure! When I am looking to buy a female out of a sale I do the same thing, if she is a mature cow I check her registered offspring. 

 

[Okotoks]

If fertility and stayability are the most important traits? Why are they never mentioned as performance traits? It always seemed like to me selecting for "growth" was almost single trait selection. In my opinion the optimum cattle have lower weaning and yearling weights. If the Shorthorn breed is a maternal breed why wouldn't high yearling epds be a detriment? Shouldn't the terminal breeds concentrate on that?

Selecting just for stayability or fertility wouldn't be multi trait selection either. Every breeder has to determine their market. In some areas the focus is going to be different than others. For myself I prefer a YW EPD of around 30 to 35, that gives me bulls the size my commercial buyers wants in our local area.It also give me steers in the feedlot that are ready to rail at 14 months.
EPD's are great but first you need structure and the ability to survive in the enviroment you and your customers operate in. It's surprising how some bloodlines adapt and survive in a variety of enviroments.

 

[aj]

Well I do think we take away natural selection and not even knowing it. Buffalo(bison bison) species......survived in our area for 6,000 years. They received no bagged mineral. They had no salt blocks. They had very little natural salt licks in this particular area. On cows we realized cows perform better with mineral. But after we 4 or 5 generations I almost wonder if we aren't accidently selecting cattle that can't survive without mineral. How many cows would survive with out protein tubs? Grain. I honestly think we out think ourselves sometimes. On the calving issues we start using genectics to max out growth. This affects calving ease balance. If we just turned cows out in the wild for 10 years our problems would be cleared up. Only the genetics that matched up....pelvic measurement,size,shapeof calf, angle of pelic area would survive. Everything that didn't match up would lay down and die or at least not reproduce. But when artificially support our breeding systems and pull 60% of the heifers and supplement and everything else. We are constantly working traits against traits. I still think that strict selection pressure and just natural selection does wonders. It helps us select for traits we may not even fully understand. I think if we turned our cow population without out any help from man......that a perfect balance of traits would occur. The right size cows would develop. Optimum milk levels. Cattle that could survive withou alot of inputs. All of this stuff is intertwined. Growth curves,puberty ages,udder quality, time of calving. Thats why it drives me nuts when we decide we need to wean 700# calves. Then have all these hoops to jump through to make that scenario work. I don't think man understands what the optimums are. Values and prices are allways changing also. This affects decesions. From a cow standpoint I just think we should let mother nature and the enviroment select cattle in stead of locking down on something that throw the balance off. #'s weaned per cow exposed.Who can argue with that. Drive for show and put for dough. Do Da Do Da.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Well I do think we take away natural selection and not even knowing it. Buffalo(bison bison) species......survived in our area for 6,000 years. They received no bagged mineral. They had no salt blocks. They had very little natural salt licks in this particular area. On cows we realized cows perform better with mineral. But after we 4 or 5 generations I almost wonder if we aren't accidently selecting cattle that can't survive without mineral. How many cows would survive with out protein tubs? Grain. I honestly think we out think ourselves sometimes. On the calving issues we start using genectics to max out growth. This affects calving ease balance. If we just turned cows out in the wild for 10 years our problems would be cleared up. Only the genetics that matched up....pelvic measurement,size,shapeof calf, angle of pelic area would survive. Everything that didn't match up would lay down and die or at least not reproduce. But when artificially support our breeding systems and pull 60% of the heifers and supplement and everything else. We are constantly working traits against traits. I still think that strict selection pressure and just natural selection does wonders. It helps us select for traits we may not even fully understand. I think if we turned our cow population without out any help from man......that a perfect balance of traits would occur. The right size cows would develop. Optimum milk levels. Cattle that could survive withou alot of inputs. All of this stuff is intertwined. Growth curves,puberty ages,udder quality, time of calving. Thats why it drives me nuts when we decide we need to wean 700# calves. Then have all these hoops to jump through to make that scenario work. I don't think man understands what the optimums are. Values and prices are allways changing also. This affects decesions. From a cow standpoint I just think we should let mother nature and the enviroment select cattle in stead of locking down on something that throw the balance off. #'s weaned per cow exposed.Who can argue with that. Drive for show and put for dough. Do Da Do Da.

There are cattle out there that are hugely based on maternal calving ease and the ability to survive on rough conditions.  Take the Texas longhorn cattle.  They are durable and likely to survive any environment in fact they were developed the way AJ recommends for shorthorns. Survival of the fittest. The problem with them is they don't yield as much as other beef cattle. In the end it is about making a profit.  That means that feed conversation, and growth are important for a lot of people who are creating a beef animal.  The longhorn has its place in the industry as that mama cow can generally make the best of any situation but when you talk about calves in the feedlot the feeder will make very little profit.    Or if you live up north like we do you might want to take a look at a galloway... 

 

[aj]

So you recommend to not use longhorn cattle in feedlots.....interesting.

 

[aj]

Jamie....when I see Dale tommorro at Century feedlot tommorro I will pass on your advice. I'll tell him that a welsh ponie breeder from Canada recomends not feeding longhorn cattle. And I will remind him to mention in his shareholder meeting in two weeks to remind the shareholders that this deal is about profit and not for the fun of it. And I will tell him that you look down on those 1200# Red Angus cows that have have calves that weigh 85# and are the mothers of the14 pens of grid master winners he has fed in the last 8 years. Those Red Angus cattle gaining 3.7 with 5 % 4's and cost of gaining .69 cents. Running around 95% choice. And featured in this last months Red Angus journal. I think he will be impressed with your cattle feeding knowledge.

 

[Okotoks]

Jamie....when I see Dale tommorro at Century feedlot tommorro I will pass on your advice. I'll tell him that a welsh ponie breeder from Canada recomends not feeding longhorn cattle. And I will remind him to mention in his shareholder meeting in two weeks to remind the shareholders that this deal is about profit and not for the fun of it. And I will tell him that you look down on those 1200# Red Angus cows that have have calves that weigh 85# and are the mothers of the14 pens of grid master winners he has fed in the last 8 years. Those Red Angus cattle gaining 3.7 with 5 % 4's and cost of gaining .69 cents. Running around 95% choice. And featured in this last months Red Angus journal. I think he will be impressed with your cattle feeding knowledge.

Well JA those Red Angus did real well! But you forgot to include the quote where Jaimiediamond said any of the stuff you claim she said about Red Angus! Oh right she didn't say those things you made it up to look like she said them. When did a Longhorn become a Red Angus? Are you suggesting that these Red Angus were developed through natural selection?(just trying to figure out the connection) I don't know what Longhorn calves bring in your neck of the woods but here they are discounted up to 50 cents a pound. Freinds of ours raised them and had to feed them out and sell them as sides and quarters in order to make any money(it was very nice beef). So if they are so danged profitable in the feed lot why don't they top the market?
One last question, does owning and breeding other types of livestock impair one's knowledge about cattle?
Yeah Jaimiediamond isn't around tonight to reply (if she even thought it worth the time) she was competing with her sister at Battle of the Breeds as part of Team Arab(yeah we have more than one breed of horse the knowledge meter is plummeting) They placed first in barrell racing edging out the quarter horses!

 

[justintime]

It is nice to see that I am not the only person who doesn't like the way aj twists the comments of others. I have read and reread Jaimie's last comments, and it makes perfect sense to me. I have no idea where aj came up with the assumptions he made in his last post. I guess he must be able to read minds as well, as he certainly could not have gotten these comments from what she wrote.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Apple Jacks,

Are you sure your not from PETA? (almost said California, but remembered this goes national and don‘t want to offend anyone that bad)  Quote from AJ, " Let all the little fuzzy creatures of the world go free..., Free..., FREE I SAY! and have a happy, joyous, and NATURAL problem free life...    "

If you want natural cattle, I don't know of anyone stopping you.  Throw away thousands of years of advancement and cut your fences and let them babies go and breed!  Actually, wait... no that won't work.  We need to probably get rid of them so that the true native ruminating herbivores (deer, antelope, bison, and elk) can graze the pretty natural grass meadows here in America.  And we should probably not stop the natural fires so that they can spread for miles upon miles burning up the old growth (artificial structures as well) and allow for new green tender growth with the coming of the rains each spring and thus again the great circle of life.  I would quote some lion king sound tract here, but I didn’t ever understand what they were chanting. 

I think we can probably feed the world spearing one natural buffalo at a time, I have a buddy that is a really talented lithic artist, so no worries I‘ll get us some stone points. 

Maybe cross the Elk and Buffalo to get some hybrid vigor.  On second thought, that would be interfering again.  To think that some people actually believe modern agricultural technology sustains the world’s human population at its highest point yet.

Completely natural would make dinner much more interesting.  Because you know if we are trying to raise everything naturally, we will have to deal with those silly little population fluctuations that occur when droughts occur and they just don‘t grow as well- maybe even die.  Sorry, forget this was the fairy tale where they all live happy, joyous and NATURALLY problem free.  Okay..  And oh yeah… we need to make sure that only the fit survive so natural cyclical epidemics should likely wipeout a majority of the populations of herbivores when they become overcrowded just like they have since the dawn of time (however long you wish that to be).  Dang it, maybe natural selection won’t put the most beef,  eh…  I mean meat of some flavor on the table. 

I used to work with a guy that lacked the neuron filter between what he thought and what he said.  I didn’t know that a similar defect could occur in association with typing as well.

Food for thought…  excerpts from this site show up on google searches.  You may want to rethink your advertising campaign of associating your brand with your mouth.  But heck, what do I know… I just get on here to learn as much as I can from people that I believe to have a wealth of knowledge in the hopes that some day I can spend more time doing what I love (breeding cattle), maybe making a little money while doing it, and maybe, just maybe doing something POSITIVE  for the world like feeding a family or two wholesome, tasty, iron packed protein goodness known as BEEF. 

 

[aj]

Message delivered. He'd love to feed a pen of shortie-red angus sometime. I also talked to a un named source of people buying Durham red bulls and using them with their red angus bulls and tagging them all as Red Angus certified.........ahhhhhhhh the schi trickery of it all.  ;D

 

[aj]

Commercialfarmer......does your lithic artist buddy do any paleo points? I would love to have a folsom or Dalton out of niabrara jasper.

 

[aj]

And last but not least ohhhh okie doakie. Becton Red Angus is essentially all natural selection. paramenters are set. The cattle that survive are evaluated mainly in indexed management groups. They linebred the heck out of their cattle. A quick note to jamie. The "Longhorn" breed was not developed or created. They were feral cattle that that escaped and lived in the wild in Texas. After the civil war there were a lot of unemployed soldiers who went to rounding up these cattle. If you could catch them you owned them. I assume you guys are all from the same town? You all have have the same breeding and apparently the same speech writer as jit. Comercialfarmer has what 10 posts?.........do I smell somethingthing funny here. (clapping)

 

[justintime]

And last but not least ohhhh okie doakie. Becton Red Angus is essentially all natural selection. paramenters are set. The cattle that survive are evaluated mainly in indexed management groups. They linebred the heck out of their cattle. A quick note to jamie. The "Longhorn" breed was not developed or created. They were feral cattle that that escaped and lived in the wild in Texas. After the civil war there were a lot of unemployed soldiers who went to rounding up these cattle. If you could catch them you owned them. I assume you guys are all from the same town? You all have have the same breeding and apparently the same speech writer as jit. Comercialfarmer has what 10 posts?.........do I smell somethingthing funny here. (clapping)

aj... you figured me out. I am now playing with your mind  by using several different names. Actually, my speech writer is finding it hard to keep us all straight. If that is what you want to believe, you just go with that thought. As far as using a speech writer, I would strongly suggest that you consider doing the same. I doubt if there is a speech writer alive, that could twist the comments of any other people the way you manage to do. The free world would be a much better place if you would decide to use a speech writer.

I strongly urge you go back and re read Jaimie's last post. Read it real slow... one word at a time. Let what she wrote sink in. She meant no harm to you or anyone else with what she wrote. She ( opps... I mean her speech writer) just made a statement that there are strains of cattle that have evolved or been developed to thrive in many different environmental conditions. Oh, I should also ask you just where the Longhorn breed came from? You state that the Longhorn breed was not developed or created. So, if they were not developed or created, did they just drop out of the sky.... or did they escape from a space ship that landed in New Mexico?? ... or are they some former show heifers that were turned out in the wilderness after their show careers were over and their use was over??? I may not be real smart but I suspect they had to come from somewhere, and I would expect they were either developed or evolved on their own. I would also suggest that there is as much or more selection and breeding development happening in the Longhorn breed as there is in many others.If you have ever seen the Longhorn Breed journal, I think even you would have to agree that there is some serious breed development happening. I have a neighbor that has a herd of Longhorn cows, and he has traveled all over N America searching for the right breeding stock to improve his herd.  The Longhorn breed has won numerous interbreed championships at British shows in recent years. I watched the Longhorn show at the Royal Highland show two years ago, and I was more than impressed with the quality of the  beef animals displayed.

Finally, I am going to repeat that your reply to Jaimie's last post was totally uncalled for.... as is per ususal with  many of your replies. I happen to know Jaimie and her family. I would say that Jaimiediamond had probably bred and owned more excellent breeding animals by the time she was 17 that many breeders own in a lifetime. I know of few breeders of any breed, that know as much about genetics, bloodlines and common sense issues related to the production of beef cattle than she does. Jaimie and her sister have always owned their own cattle and they have always made their own breeding decisions.... for as long as I can remember. They were doing this at 12 years of age, that is, buying their own cows and herd bulls, making their own breeding decisions and showing their own cattle ... and doing this with their own money. They have been far more successful than most cattle breeders 3 or 4 times their age.

Jamie's post had absolutely no vindictiveness in it. I do not think you had any right to respond in the manner you did. Totally uncalled for... again... and yet again. Guess I shouldn't be surprised. This is the aj we have all got to know on the planet!

 

[aj]

I was told the Longhorns escaped the Spainish people who came over from spain. They probably did evolve if anything. They were saved from extinction kinda like the buffalo from a several breeders. I saw a dog show on tv ten years or so ago. Do you guys have any of those weird looking dogs. Kinda like a poodle only taller. When they shave them up they look kinda like a lion.....only smaller. They had pink ribbons and stuff on them. I thought they looked kinda cool. I'm sure you know jamie well. I assume the Arabians have a long history of making good ponies in Canada. What were the horses in the Patton movie. Were they arabians. Man them babies could dance. I liked the one patton quote. The media asked him if he read the bible? He replied" Every @@@damn day".  If you run across one of those funky dogs I may be interested in them. Keep on trying. Don't give up.

 

[sjcattleco]

LOL i love reading this stuff!!! I also like the fact that people actually take VALUABLE time to write opinions and discertrations on topics that don't really matter. and they "say" thing son here  that in a face to face conversation their little internal filter would keep from coming out of their mouth B/C they might just get punched!!!  I know there are some folks on here that are completely FULL OF WIND!!!  and think they can have their cake and eat to!!!!!  this would be a great show to put on RFD-TV.. make it like  The View and let about 6 of you guys just duke it out every week!!!

 

[comercialfarmer]

Yep, I know.  I feel ashamed, but I couldn't resist.  I really tried... guess I'm just weak. 

AJ, as far as the niobrara jasper goes...  it is a little further north than he normally travels to get most of his materials, other than ordering exotic stuff.  However, if you were to supply him some and a little extra- I'm sure something could be worked out. 

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

LOL i love reading this stuff!!! I also like the fact that people actually take VALUABLE time to write opinions and discertrations on topics that don't really matter. and they "say" thing son here  that in a face to face conversation their little internal filter would keep from coming out of their mouth B/C they might just get punched!!!  I know there are some folks on here that are completely FULL OF WIND!!!  and think they can have their cake and eat to!!!!!  this would be a great show to put on RFD-TV.. make it like  The View and let about 6 of you guys just duke it out every week!!!

I would LOVE to be on that show. Scott you should call RFD-TV and tell them ur idea. I think tho if there will be fist fights, we should make it more like Jerry Springer. We can bring in people from all over the cattle industry and .............................LETS GET IT ON!!!!