Some random thoughts for new cattle breeders

[JTM]

Everyone needs to have some kind of philosophy and plan when it comes to having a cattle breeding program. There are so many different ways of going about breeding cattle depending on your breed of choice, resources, and environment to name a few. Along the journey I have learned a few things that I wanted to share that may help someone make their decision with more ease.
- Show cattle are bred for showing and that is what you get: I think a lot of people, like myself, when they first learn about cattle, especially if they didn't grow up with them like myself, tend to believe the hype and the myth that show cattle are the best performing cattle and that the bloodlines being used must be superior to the others because the judges are picking them. If you are just getting into the cattle business don't assume that your club calf cows are just going to lay down and have a live calf, the calf get up and nurse on it's own, and the cow actually have an udder they can latch onto with adequate milk. If these are the traits you are wanting in your cows then you have to buy those cows from a breeder that has been culling their cows for those traits for years. I'd say at least 90% of the time those cows are not going to look fancy enough and won't create calves fancy enough for today's show ring.
- All auctions, private treaty sales, and breeders are honest and won't rip you off: Don't be naive to think that you can tell a sale consultant to buy you a calf for up to $4,000 and you still might get that calf for $1500. That is not how this industry is operating right now. If you get that calf you will more than likely get bid up by the owners or the management responsible for the sale. Probably about $3500-$3800.
-Also, do you really think that those purebred heifers weighing 850lbs in November were really born in April? The judges will pick them everytime because of their performance because they claim it isn't their responsibility to control proper birthdates within a show.
- How about all of those clubby bulls that all weighed around 88 lbs when they are born. Please don't believe that you will never get a 130 lb calf that ends up killing your cow because you didn't expect it to be that big.
- Just because that show calf  really blooms on grain and grows really fast doesn't mean that it will perform once you stop giving it grain and put it out in a grass pasture. Again, they were bred to grow on grain, not grass.
In conclusion, don't get me wrong, I love showing cattle, analyizing show cattle, and breeding show cattle, but sometimes I just get sick and tired of the games that get played and the lack of honesty and integrity that exists within the show cattle industry. I guess that's why I have changed course in the last 5 years.       

 

[chiangus]

Is 88 some magical number because I have noticed many bulls that were born 88lbs.  (pop)

 

[JTM]

Is 88 some magical number because I have noticed many bulls that were born 88lbs.  (pop)

Yes I think it is. It's a number that says hey, spend money on this bull or buy semen because you don't have to worry about big calves because he didn't even weigh 90lbs when he was born so surely his calves will never be over 100 lbs.... It might be the magic number that comes up a lot when you have a calf that is 15 days over due and weighs 118 lbs but lets just say he is 88lbs because if he would have been born on time he would have weighed 88lbs. No biggy. 

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Well said Josh!  I love to look at cattle at shows and what not. But I , like you, have learned over time most of those cattle just can't cut it when they have to provide for themselves. I hope someday it changes.

 

[RidinHeifer]

Breed to your standard of perfect.  Not everyone has to like it.

 

[ZNT]

I've had to advise the youth purchasing our cattle to not get discouraged when the cattle in their class are weighing a couple hundred pounds more than their calf at the early shows.  I just tell them to be patient, and as the cattle mature, it will all even out, and as even more time goes on, those extra-mature cattle early on will be over-mature when it really matters. 

And the real kicker is seeing how many of these 18 month old heifers are actually bred at the shows.  I would consider myself a failure as a breeder if I had that kind of percentage in my herd. 

 

[CANsteer]

Is 88 some magical number because I have noticed many bulls that were born 88lbs.   (pop)

its the speed the DeLorean in Back to the Future had to go in order to time travel!  ;D  (lol)

 

[feeder duck]

Have not been on here in a long while but well said. I just find it hard to believe all the BS money that is flying around in a crap economy.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

One must keep up with the jones's, no matter how they do it.

 

[frostback]

Yup if the jones are passing you by, they must be cheating. Not by better breeding decisions, feed program, marketing, blah blah blah whine whine whine.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Is it whining if you don't try to keep up and just do your own thing and let the chips fall where they may. One only needs to look at sale reports to see the horse trading taking place. I don't care. It's went on forever. Like knabe says, breed something. Although I'm not sure what he bred, his point is valid. Feeder duck makes a good point to. I'm sure the economy tanking hasn't affected us all the same. Some folks have money and can spend it. No problem. Good for them.

 

[JTM]

Yup if the jones are passing you by, they must be cheating. Not by better breeding decisions, feed program, marketing, blah blah blah whine whine whine.

So Frostback are you one of the Jones'? Maybe relation to Jim Jones? (lol)

Sorry, had to. I see your point but you either agree that what I said is a problem or your drinking the Kool Aid IMO.

 

[Doc]

JTM,
I agree that there is a big problem with what looks like out of date calves. But, because I wasn't there when they were born then I can't say for sure. The fact remains it is what it is. You have a few options 1)You can voice your concerns to a board member(don't really know what they can do),2) keep doing your own thing and not worry about if someone is very ethical or not , or 3) do like you think they are doing. I prefer #2. I don't care what line of work you are in , there is ethical people and unethical people. I've been raising cattle since 1972, definitely not as long as a lot of people, but this has been going on as long as I can remember.
As far as sale consultants go they are exactly that, SALES CONSULTANTS. They are hired by the outfit putting on the sale to get them the most money they can. If you use them you have to set a budget on what you are willing to give for a particular animal and be prepared to spend all of it. If they stop $200 or $300 under that , then count yourself lucky instead of thinking about what it could have cost you. I've used them plenty of times, but I sure try to find someone I know going to a sale 1st. That's why I let people know if I'm going to be at a sale and would be glad to give my opinion on an animal and bid if they want me to, because I would hope they would return the favor if they were at a sale that I couldn't make it to.
To sum it up , I will continue to raise what cattle I like , with the bloodlines I like and the kind that I think will go on and do what my customers want them to do.

 

[frostback]

Is it whining if you don't try to keep up and just do your own thing and let the chips fall where they may.

You would not be blaming others for any shortcomings from your program if you were doing this. But there are far too many that come on here and and say people are cheating instead of taking responsibility for their decisions.

 

[frostback]

Yup if the jones are passing you by, they must be cheating. Not by better breeding decisions, feed program, marketing, blah blah blah whine whine whine.

So Frostback are you one of the Jones'? Maybe relation to Jim Jones? (lol)

Sorry, had to. I see your point but you either agree that what I said is a problem or your drinking the Kool Aid IMO.

No relations down here other then marriage.
And no Kool Aid drinking either. I chose my base cow herd, and what stays, goes and gets bought.  I chose the bulls I use and if it dosnt work I dont blame the bull or the owner of said bull. I chose when and how to feed my calves, not blame others if they start earlier than I do. I make marketing decisions.  On and on you can do your own thing but dont blame others if its not a success and people are not flocking to your sales and your calves dont win, like I said earlier take responsibility for YOUR actions. Trying to take down others to your level instead of you rising up to where you want to be,  is not the way to do it.

 

[aj]

I think it is important to point out that there is a huge disconnect between showsteer winners and production agriculture because of lethal genetic defects and cow killing problem. I heard a guy at the show I went to exclaim that the the breeder of Heatwave will go to hell because of the the thousands of cows heatwave killed.......a little extreme but interesting.

 

[JTM]

I just think it's funny that the whole motivation for writing this topic was to warn new comers to the show cattle scene and help them understand some things but it's almost like some people have a problem with that. I pointed out some things that are undisputable facts within the show cattle scene. Is part of it me venting a little bit? Sure it is. Not because I'm tired of losing or nobody showed up to a sale I had, but because I sincerely think that it's wrong. I'm not trying to tell people what to breed or that they shouldn't show cattle. I am just laying out some good information that they should know going in that will help them make decisions about how they are going to conduct their program. If this hurts somebody's feelings or gets them defensive I am not going to apologize for speaking the truth. You can either fall in line, play the game and shush your mouth, or do like I am doing, breeding what I want, taking the liberty to share with others my experiences, and feeling good about it.

 

[J2F]

Questions?
Why is their not more oversight in the cattle showing industry?
Why does ever show make it's own rules and never police or protect the integrity of the rules?
I personally see less and less show cattle every year at fairs and shows and wonder if the lack of rules and lack of enforcing rules are the reason why.

I am going to join in with Josh on his soap box for a second and say this, Just because you say phrases like "it is business" or "i am in it to win it" or any other justification you hear in all walks of life (I am not talking just the show cattle industry) IT IS NOT OK TO LIE, CHEAT or STEAL. 

I think with all that has been said it is important to acknowledge that not all cattle at cattle show's fit the not functional or cheater category. There are people out there that breed and raise cattle for show and field and are OK knowing that their chances of winning in the show ring is smaller by not following the big show fads in their breeding programs but will settle for having cattle they believe in.

 

[lcattleco.]

Constant bashing of the shorthorn breed.....  I would say as a breeder of shorthorn cattle my entire life that if we bash the show side of the shorthorn breed and want it gone, then the breed will follow!  Gone!!  There is no reason for a profit minded comercial cattleman to raise shorthorns.  Sorry, thats just the way it is.  Packers want black hides, and those saying we need solid red cattle are just trying to masquerade as red angus.  Not that I like the situation, but just the truth.....

 

[garybob]

Constant bashing of the shorthorn breed.....  I would say as a breeder of shorthorn cattle my entire life that if we bash the show side of the shorthorn breed and want it gone, then the breed will follow!  Gone!!  There is no reason for a profit minded comercial cattleman to raise shorthorns.  Sorry, thats just the way it is.  Packers want black hides, and those saying we need solid red cattle are just trying to masquerade as red angus.  Not that I like the situation, but just the truth.....

Did you sit down before taking the Scotch Comb out of your rear pocket?You've done gone and riled me up & out of my SP hibernation.
    Wrong! Any profit-oriented producer would be wise to include a solid-red Shorthorn bull of adequate performance from a reputable breeder that treats his cows like livestock, and not the family pet. Nobody in thier right mind, that sells their cattle as feeder calves or yearlings would go straight-bred Shorthorn we're simply advocating the use of Shorthorn-cross cows ran in front of black bulls. I will readily concede the fact that Order buyers are what they are.A leopard can't hide his spots.However, for the larger producer who retains ownership, especially if those cattle are marketed on "grade & yield" grids,there is a distinct advantage to having a Shorthorn influence in their cattle, especially when the benefit of Feed Efficiency and RFI is included during the Feedlot period. The problem lies herein this topic of dicussion.....don't buy catttle that have been raised in "artificial environments" for more than 4 pedigree generations, and expect them to function maternally and/or remain physically attractive while doing so.that's all we're saying here.Peace.