Votes for sale in Congress/Senate N/C (Way to go Nebraska!!)

[knabe]

I will admit, I have tried to follow this conversation, but some have left me confused. But anyway,
Yes, I have known several families that have had HUGE health issues. In fact, I know more. Most with cancer, a few with farm accidents. ALL had some type of insurance, all that are still alive, are doing fine financially. In fact, their "expensive health insurance" save 2 farms, and 1 house.  The others would have come up with the money somehow with or without insurance. The insurance paid what the policy said it would pay. With no problems, no fights.

The problem I have is when a hospital charges $23 for a box of nasal waste disposal tissues (kleenex), and $41 for thermal warming flexable material (microwaved heated gel pack). Not one single thing in the bill will address these outrageous charges. I could list a few others....  again, some of this can be handled with employee carried insurance, because you are now more aware and will place more pressure on cost containment, but the hassle of watching that stuff while one is in the hosptital is just too much of a hassle for people and they don't want to worry about it, all the while, people are laughing at the profit they are making just so the user doesn't have to do anything.

As I explain to myself every time I pay my premiums: "God this is a lot of money but I hope I am totally wasting it."  hope creates dependence, why is it so easy to give up all that money for a premium, which is even easier since it's through employers, and most people have NO idea how much that is and since they don't, they don't complain about itemized bills.  also, remember, the hospital goes out and buys the kleenex etc.  now, add in the real cost of purchasing those kleenex yourself at the store, you had to buy gas, buy a car, buy insurance, yes you don't have an inventory system you have to pay for or a complaint line if you run out, so really, those kleenex are not as cheap as you think, the cost is disguised.

Just heard that this new bill will cost Catapilliar $100 million and John Deere $150 million. JUST THIS YEAR.  So who is going to buy all those unemployeed people their insurance when they are laid off? the taxpayer, remember, there are fewer and fewer of them, making revenues more and more volatile.  buying off voters of any wage diminishes oversight.

 

[OH Breeder]

Knabe,

I have one question for you. Have you ever been hospitalized for an extended period of time or had a catastrophic illness?

I am not knabe, but yes, I have. So has my Dad. So has my neighbor. So has my good friend.
What's your question?

#1 Read my reply above
#2 Catastrophic health insurance sounds great in theory an til you have to use it. It pays for one time issue. If you read my reply above you would see there are more cost than just that one catastrophic illness. If you survive that catstrphic illness the cost DON"T stop there. the first two years I was getting CT SCAN's and doctor visits just about every other month. I hate to tell you what its cost. The 1.5 million is just in surgery and hospital stays.
I have worked in the hospital for 21 years. I have seen more than I care when it comes to families who have had to file bankruptcy due to medical cost.

If this new system is going to be so horrible then why aren't Canadians and French and other public health systems in the world getting on TV and saying ITS A MISTAKE DON"T DO IT.

Whole other issue but.....I think its said I could go to work at the local Honda Plant and make more money then working in Intensive Care Unit taking care of patients.

 

[knabe]

#1 Read my reply above  i did
#2 Catastrophic health insurance sounds great in theory an til you have to use it. It pays for one time issue. no it doesn't, and if there was competition, which there isn't, there would be more options, not less.  If you read my reply above you would see there are more cost than just that one catastrophic illness.  I know, read my posts.  If you survive that catstrphic illness the cost DON"T stop there. the first two years I was getting CT SCAN's and doctor visits just about every other month. I hate to tell you what its cost. The 1.5 million is just in surgery and hospital stays.
I have worked in the hospital for 21 years. I have seen more than I care when it comes to families who have had to file bankruptcy due to medical cost. yup.  had that happen to my grandmother.  again, since there is no competition and no one knows what it looks like, we don't have it because everyone wants a guarantee for everything but aren't willing to pay for it, they want someone else to.

If this new system is going to be so horrible then why aren't Canadians and French and other public health systems in the world getting on TV and saying ITS A MISTAKE DON"T DO IT. they are.

Whole other issue but.....I think its said I could go to work at the local Honda Plant and make more money then working in Intensive Care Unit taking care of patients.

  lots of people say things.  go on a fact finding mission and see if it's true or not rather than playing the fear game.  if it does pay more, will you take the job?

 

[OH Breeder]

#1 Read my reply above  i did
#2 Catastrophic health insurance sounds great in theory an til you have to use it. It pays for one time issue. no it doesn't, and if there was competition, which there isn't, there would be more options, not less.  If you read my reply above you would see there are more cost than just that one catastrophic illness.   I know, read my posts.  If you survive that catstrphic illness the cost DON"T stop there. the first two years I was getting CT SCAN's and doctor visits just about every other month. I hate to tell you what its cost. The 1.5 million is just in surgery and hospital stays.
I have worked in the hospital for 21 years. I have seen more than I care when it comes to families who have had to file bankruptcy due to medical cost. yup.  had that happen to my grandmother.  again, since there is no competition and no one knows what it looks like, we don't have it because everyone wants a guarantee for everything but aren't willing to pay for it, they want someone else to.

If this new system is going to be so horrible then why aren't Canadians and French and other public health systems in the world getting on TV and saying ITS A MISTAKE DON"T DO IT. they are.

Whole other issue but.....I think its said I could go to work at the local Honda Plant and make more money then working in Intensive Care Unit taking care of patients.

   lots of people say things.  go on a fact finding mission and see if it's true or not rather than playing the fear game.  if it does pay more, will you take the job?

my reply was in response to SH. She asked what my point was.

The old saying walk a mile in another person's shoes. I have heard alot about theory of how catastrophic insurance SHOULD work but it is not that simple.

I left bedside for a host of other reasons.Would I take a factory job -I didn't because I loved doing what I was doing for more than money.
BUT I am working Weekends nights holidays they are on shut down for 2 weeks at Christmas PAID....etc. Tell me that it wouldn't bother you if you had 10 years of college and someone can graduate high school and walk into 60-70K job with excellent benefits. Some of the worse employee benefits are provided by hospitals themselves. Mandated over time after working 12 hour shifts. Health care reform goes far beyond insurance. Public health insurance should bring cost in line instead of 500% market up on Tylenol because insurance reimbursement is so poor.
If do not have insurance I pay full tilt and if I have insurance I get a discount? = bankruptcy
Did you notice you said your GRANDMOTHER? I just hope  I make it to 70.......
Fear game....  ???  I am talking about real life. I am making the payments every month. I have another $50K procedure (with no complications) coming up in two weeks.

 

[Dusty]

What would happen if everyone had health insurance on their cow-herd?  Everyone would take every animal to the vet even when not needed "just to be on the safe side."  It would be a trainwreck.  Prices would go up because someone else would paying for it.  Quality would go to hell and you would have something that looks like our current healthcare system.  Healthcare is supposed to be there when you need it.  Not just a catch all for anytime you have a cold.  

 

[OH Breeder]

What would happen if everyone had health insurance on their cow-herd?  Everyone would take every animal to the vet even when not needed "just to be on the safe side."  It would be a trainwreck.  Prices would go up because someone else would paying for it.  Quality would go to hell and you would have something that looks like our current healthcare system.  Healthcare is supposed to be there when you need it.  Not just a catch all for anytime you have a cold.  

I will respectfully disagree. If more people would practice PREVENTIVE MAINTENCE and be proactive with their health care you would have less problems. The studies support preventive/proactive health care with better outcomes instead of reactive health care. We should be seeing doctor yearly for physicals etc.

 

[knabe]

i think the answer is somewhere in between, but closer to dusty's scenario.

the poor producers are always cutting corners and are always going out of business and apply their lack of learning lessons in other ventures and we should reward this?

the number of responses that want free stuff is just more proof that no industry is immune from a free lunch, either wanting it, or having their mind changed by it.

it's amazing how agriculture touts the "independent" lifestyle, but seems more wedded to aid on a per capita basis than other industries.

when everyone's on the dole, who will be america?

 

[Dusty]

What would happen if everyone had health insurance on their cow-herd?  Everyone would take every animal to the vet even when not needed "just to be on the safe side."  It would be a trainwreck.  Prices would go up because someone else would paying for it.  Quality would go to hell and you would have something that looks like our current healthcare system.  Healthcare is supposed to be there when you need it.  Not just a catch all for anytime you have a cold. 

I will respectfully disagree. If more people would practice PREVENTIVE MAINTENCE and be proactive with their health care you would have less problems. The studies support preventive/proactive health care with better outcomes instead of reactive health care. We should be seeing doctor yearly for physicals etc.

That is exactly my point.  We have to pay out of pocket for veterinary expenses.  So we try and prevent them through good herd nutrition, vaccinations, early diagnosis, and just good care in general.  If we had health insurance for our cattle we wouldn't be as proactive at preventing problems.  We would just show up at the vet clinic and say she's sick.  And then get pis sed and say we have inferior healthcare when the vet says the odds don't look good.

 

[knabe]

That is exactly my point.  We have to pay out of pocket for veterinary expenses.  So we try and prevent them through good herd nutrition, vaccinations, early diagnosis, and just good care in general.  If we had health insurance for our cattle we wouldn't be as proactive at preventing problems.  We would just show up at the vet clinic and say she's sick.  And then get pis sed and say we have inferior healthcare when the vet says the odds don't look good.
[/quote]

maybe we could get unlimited feed as well.  is there anything that shouldn't be in the collective where everyone pays a different amount or nothing and are inversely reimbursed?

 

[OH Breeder]

Let me put it like this.

Every woman should get a mammogram /screen for breast cancer. Your theory would be don't go in and get checked an til you find a lump many times that is too late.
Families with history of colon cancer are recommended to get yearly screens or colonoscopy. Your plan is don't go and til you bleeding or have issues.
Preventative health care works. If you get your teeth cleaned every 6 months your likely hood of getting cavities are considerable reduced. My insurance pays for cleaning because its preventative.
I do have a vet come periodically when I notice issues within the herd. If there are issues we catch them early. We perform preventative maintenance in our herd by vaccinating. humans can't vaccinate themselves etc.

If you notice a sound in your brakes and they seem sticky but you ignore them and then you it gets worse- now its a set of brakes and rotors. A $29.95 repair versus a $300 repair.

Its cheaper to maintain someone then it is to fix them when they are really broke. Preventative maintenance is cheaper than extended hospital stay.

 

[knabe]

Its cheaper to maintain someone then it is to fix them when they are really broke. Preventative maintenance is cheaper than extended hospital stay.

why not mandate feed intake control devices for humans to minimize heart disease and diabetes II?

 

[OH Breeder]

Its cheaper to maintain someone then it is to fix them when they are really broke. Preventative maintenance is cheaper than extended hospital stay.

why not mandate feed intake control devices for humans to minimize heart disease and diabetes II?

HA HA HA....
There is decades of research to support proactive health care. We live in a society that has allowed us to choose. I can only choose for me. We can only make recommendations. I don't think I ever said that you should be mandated to have preventative screens BUT they WORK. You have the freedom to choose to adhere to the guidelines and practical advice. Like the seatbelt law- we know that it saves lives but you choose to put it on every time you climb in a car. The consequence of not follow the recommendation by law is a penalty. I think the poor health and shorten life span by not following preventative medicine is punishment enough. If you choose to eat a life of fast food and not adhere to guidelines and have a risk of diabetes you probably will get it and suffer the consquences. Many of the consquences are not pleasant.

Frankly, lot of your health is based on family history. You can't change some things that are and will effect your life. You can only modify the factors that may lead to additional risk. Some people smoke and drink every day live to be 100. Its in the genes......
Tracing the illnesses suffered by your parents, grandparents, and other blood relatives can help your doctor predict the disorders to which you may be at risk and take action to keep you and your family healthy. this recommendation appears in many journals in publication today- NEJM, Family Medicine etc.
Preventative medicine works.

What is frustrating is the insurance companies use the government guidelines when they are in favor of reducing coverage. IE: recently a government report said that it MAY not be beneficial for woman under age of 40 something to get mammograms. Insurance companies were going to run out and stop payment on any female getting screened. That was short lived. There is enough evidence to support the use of screen as a tool to prevent breast cancer espeically in those females with significant family history. (....paraphrasing)

 

[knabe]

We lived in a society that has allowed us to choose.

 

[Dusty]

I also find it interesting that elective medical procedures.  Cosmetic surgery, lasik eye surgery etc get better and cheaper every year.  Why is that?  I'm sure it is because of goverment control, subsidies and low insurance deductibles?  Or could it be the free market has forced these industries to provide better quality at a more affordable price??

 

[knabe]

recently a government report said that it MAY not be beneficial for woman under age of 40 something to get mammograms.

what if it's true?

recently, it was found angiograms were 40% wrong for  heart disease and the radiation was not good for women to use for something that was wrong that often.  the decision is based on a patient and their doctor and the risk involved.

now, there is a test which tests RNA expression levels for heart disease and is another tool to help doctors diagnose and suggest treatment.

what if a study came out tomorrow that radio breast exams increased the risk, especially for a certain group of patients.  i'm not suggesting the mammograms are useless, but it is between a doctor and a patient, not insurance companies, the government etc, to decide this.

and what about all the radioactive waste generated by the seemingly endless x-rays? 

 

[Show Heifer]

OH Breeder: What you say is for the most part correct. Your health is dependent, in large part, to your family history and genetics. So why do I want someone in MY insurance pool who has the genetic markers for downs syndrome, one parent death due to heart attack, anothe rparent with colon cancer,  diabetes on both sides of the family, and a brother that is alcoholic?  (All made up - just a "for instance")  I want to be in the insurance pool that is my age, average weight, excersices an hour a day, and has no medical disease markers, nor family health issues. 
I am not sure how "everyone" getting insurance is going to lower my insurance rates.  Although, preventitive care should be included in coverage it has never been, nor is it now.  Nothing changed on that front.

 

[knabe]

So why do I want someone in MY insurance pool who has the genetic markers for downs syndrome, one parent death due to heart attack, anothe rparent with colon cancer,  diabetes on both sides of the family, and a brother that is alcoholic? 

this, in a nutshell, is the incentive for single payer.  it sounds good and i used to like it.  the reason i don't  now is because you can't know what all this is going to cost and if you put control in the hands of government that can simply print money or tax more, there is little if any incentive to control costs of bureaucracy.  government will decide who gets paid what and will pick and choose who wins and loses and government is not benevolent, nor are subsidized and protected insurance companies, and nor are individuals.  that's why markets work, but those three entities, mostly government and companies working together, screw the individual, yet the individual keeps electing officials who refuse to represent them and mandate competition.

look at social security, medicare, medicaid etc with anywhere from 5x to 12x of projected costs.  remember, the projected costs were used to rationalize those programs in the first place.

also, supposedly, we ran out of social security money this year, not 2016, 20whatever from projections.  i refuse to believe ANY government projection anymore.

add in that the government employees administering this program will probably be union, they can't be fired, they will have lifetime benefits and they have NO incentive. it will be like the post office. arguing otherwise is simply irrational.

 

[OH Breeder]

OH Breeder: What you say is for the most part correct. Your health is dependent, in large part, to your family history and genetics. So why do I want someone in MY insurance pool who has the genetic markers for downs syndrome, one parent death due to heart attack, anothe rparent with colon cancer,  diabetes on both sides of the family, and a brother that is alcoholic?  (All made up - just a "for instance")  I want to be in the insurance pool that is my age, average weight, excersices an hour a day, and has no medical disease markers, nor family health issues. 
I am not sure how "everyone" getting insurance is going to lower my insurance rates.  Although, preventitive care should be included in coverage it has never been, nor is it now.  Nothing changed on that front.

That same feeling could be turned back on you. That street goes both ways. Why would they want your genes in their pool. Unless your ideal body weight have never been to the doctor and are healthy as a horse your a risk."You already revealed you have had an extensive hospitalization. So you are "pre-existing". If you think you are going to find any group of people with NO medical disease markers keep looking.
If you read your coverage, more insurance companies are being pushed by employers to provide preventative care it is there you just have to have the "right" plan.

For the most part what I say is correct?" I didn't want to go through the countelss referances to those points. You are who you are because of your genes. I would say my 20 plus years in the medical field working directly in ER, Open Heart surgery, Trauma ICU and CCU would give me a good referance point.

 

[OH Breeder]

recently a government report said that it MAY not be beneficial for woman under age of 40 something to get mammograms.

what if it's true?

recently, it was found angiograms were 40% wrong for  heart disease and the radiation was not good for women to use for something that was wrong that often.  the decision is based on a patient and their doctor and the risk involved.

now, there is a test which tests RNA expression levels for heart disease and is another tool to help doctors diagnose and suggest treatment.

what if a study came out tomorrow that radio breast exams increased the risk, especially for a certain group of patients.  i'm not suggesting the mammograms are useless, but it is between a doctor and a patient, not insurance companies, the government etc, to decide this.

and what about all the radioactive waste generated by the seemingly endless x-rays? 

Like I said before, there are a HOST of things that need reform. Insurance is just one of them. I can give you 5 markers that are not commonly drawn on cardiac patients that have documented proof in predicted coronary plaque rupture. But because of "reimbursement' and the way physicians are trained they won't touch them. We have brought quiet a few markers to light that could PREVENT alot of cardiac issues, BNP, MPO, IMA, CD-Ligan, MM9, NGAL, and many more.

 

[OH Breeder]

I also find it interesting that elective medical procedures. Cosmetic surgery, lasik eye surgery etc get better and cheaper every year. Why is that? I'm sure it is because of government control, subsidies and low insurance deductibles?  Or could it be the free market and has forced these industries to provide better quality at a more affordable price??

Cosmetic surgery is not covered by insurance. They are elective procedures. I had excessive scare tissue that was creating problems in my abdomen. In the process of rebuilding my entire abdominal wall. I used a plastic surgeon(and a general surgeon) because I wanted a belly button and didn't want to look like the boy from MARS. I had to pay cash for plastics services. You can only get cosmetic procedure paid for if it is medically necessary. Those group of doctors do not like insurance AT ALL. They charge through the nose and you either pay it or get a loan to cover it. There are very few procedures that can be done under the guise of cosmetic surgery.