Shorty hf bulls

[aj]

I always thought that a shortie over about 30 yearling epd would wash out as cows in my enviroment. Not sure if this 100% true I just think the cattle with the higher yearling deals are hard doing non stayability cattle. Corn belt shorties have had this reputation as long as I can remember. This is probably just a line of genetics and not nessecarily a numbers correlation.

 

[justintime]

I always thought that a shortie over about 30 yearling epd would wash out as cows in my enviroment. Not sure if this 100% true I just think the cattle with the higher yearling deals are hard doing non stayability cattle. Corn belt shorties have had this reputation as long as I can remember. This is probably just a line of genetics and not nessecarily a numbers correlation.

I think you are correct aj... higher growth EPDs are not necessarily good in all envirnoments. I also think lowest BW or highest calving ease EPDs may not be the best for some management or environmental systems. Each person has to decide on what is best for their environment and for the amount of management they are willing to offer. For example, if you normally have very dry conditions, I doubt if you will like a high EPD for yearling weight, as they will either die or look like an Indian dog coming off pastures. EPDs are just estimates... nothing more. It is up to every breeder to decide what works best in their situation. Those who are willing to assist an occasional birth and those who drive through your pasture once a week through the calving season, will most likely be selecting breeding stock with very different EPDs.

There are cases of EPD manipulation in all breeds, and it usually comes back to bite the breeder who does this, in the butt. I think EPDs are an important tool, but I do not live or die by the numbers. I have seen some once impressive herds totally screwed up by generations of selection by numbers only.Common sense is a breeders most valuable selection tool. Unfortunately, it is also becoming an endangered quality as well.

 

[aj]

Exactly jit. BUT even if you throw out epd's and just use indexes in herd it is a measurement where extremes aren't always good.I remember when we first started using indexes in the 80's or whenever. We had some young cows index say 106 to 110. Wow we thought! This is performance! Then it seemed like these high indexing cow for weaning weights of calves started falling behind in breed back dates. Then in a couple years they just didn't get bred back in time. Thats why I hate the wda race. All it does is encourage cheating on birth dates and whatever. A herd or an entire of breed gets to chasing big hard keeping cattle without realizing what we are doing and we tend to leave the real world behind. Especially in a "maternal" breed. Why in the world would a "maternal breed put alot of emphasis on yearling weight numbers? I think the most complete bull out there is one who doesn't max traits out but is above average on all traits. How often do these bulls get ignored cause they don't win in the show ring.

 

[sue]

Exactly jit. BUT even if you throw out epd's and just use indexes in herd it is a measurement where extremes aren't always good.I remember when we first started using indexes in the 80's or whenever. We had some young cows index say 106 to 110. Wow we thought! This is performance! Then it seemed like these high indexing cow for weaning weights of calves started falling behind in breed back dates. Then in a couple years they just didn't get bred back in time. Thats why I hate the wda race. All it does is encourage cheating on birth dates and whatever. A herd or an entire of breed gets to chasing big hard keeping cattle without realizing what we are doing and we tend to leave the real world behind. Especially in a "maternal" breed. Why in the world would a "maternal breed put alot of emphasis on yearling weight numbers? I think the most complete bull out there is one who doesn't max traits out but is above average on all traits. How often do these bulls get ignored cause they don't win in the show ring.

I have to agree with maternal breed portion of this post.

 

[jaimiediamond]

okotoks. Unless your name is Fred as in Flinstone .... I doubt anyone in the purebred business of shorthorn thinks that the false reporting of information within the  shorthorn breed was invented in Dunlap, Iowa????  This whole thing just makes me laugh ...  Like who cares ... now you think we have a calving problem and we didnt in the 90's????? I have friends outside the breed that worked in sh herds with bloodlines like Rodeo Drive ... that pulled calves with Nissan trucks in the 90's.  Please dont get me started . 

We are beef breeders not all of our stock will go into production meaning that our steers need to grow and finish otherwise we shoot ourselves in the proverbial foot.  I find it highly concerning that some bulls promoted on the planet matured at 1900 lbs how much do the steers weigh when they are railed? What is the carcass dressing like?  Are we creating miniature Shorthorn cattle? An 1600 mature female that has easy fleshing ability works in most areas I have toured. In fact small stature doesn't constitute easy fleshing. Regardless there are some excellent cattle that perform if you look at the Sneed’s herd you can see how the numbers were accurately imputed and a reliable EPD was produced.  

Perhaps as I am coming from this strange country also known as Canada where my cup is always half full BUT the reality is I see a lot of cows that are easy fleshing easy calving, and most importantly they are producing calves that would work in the herd or on the rail.  Isn’t that what producing beef is about? Or am I just confused?   :-\

Maternal is not the Shorthorn breeds problem it is our strength.  As long as we as breeders continue to select for our maternal characteristics, that will never be a problem.  As we have the maternal traits now we need to be able to offer something that allows ourselves and our customers to cash in at the bank. Meaning we have to recognize that over half of the commercial sired calves are going to be in a feed lot.

Finally insulting other breeders without actually reading the article (which ironically supports their own rants) proves them to be a little YABBA DABBA DO themselves. Maybe sue you should be Pebbles?   :-*

 

[aj]

It takes a big cow to eat a 1400# round bale of feed..........but it wont take her long. And what is a carcass dressing?

 

[aj]

Hummmm......"Last night I broke the seal, off a Jim Beam decanter, that looked like elvis". "I tore off the head of Elvis,drank Fred down to his pelvis" Yabba dabba doo...the king is gone...and so are youuuuu"! Ahhhhhh Mad Dog! <beer>

 

[jaimiediamond]

It takes a big cow to eat a 1400# round bale of feed..........but it wont take her long. And what is a carcass dressing?

Oh aj you are a prime example of why we shouldn't just focus on maternal.... Its kind of like a walking bull you have to be in the business to know some of the terms...

I would tell you to stick to the song writing but I would hate for you to starve to death

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Lets revisit this again for the 3,000th time. 1600 lb mature cows dont work when the groceries are reduced. There are places they do, hell they could work in small numbers here at my place. Whats wrong with a 1900 lb mature bull? Do you know what N Bar Emulation EXT's mature weight was? I doubt it with what your typing in huge letters so we can all see. Why was EXT the most used bull in the HISTORY of the beef business? Oh yeah he produced outstanding females that lived a long time on minimal input. Shorthorns strenght is maternal but as folks choose performance to try and keep up with the Jones, we loose that with each generation. If I was a commercial guy, I would want 1200 lb cows on avg that are long lived and great mamas. But what about the performance side when those calves go to the feedlot? Oh I forgot to mention those calves in my commercial herd are sired by a terminal bull that was bred for performance. I dont think you can have it all as some folks love to say. You need to build your females first. Canada may as well be another planet from the states as far as what is deemed important to a successful cow calf operation. That cold weather for 8 months tends to make your situation quite different from ours.

sue is not personally attacking anybody. She is making the point that EPD manipulation started way before the last fella got burned.

 

[sue]

The accuracy and complete data reporting has been a large issue in the breed for a long time. It's me saying this it's come up in discussion before. I recall Ralph Larson and many other breeders in this topic for years on end. As commerically focused breeders we have discussed ( maybe not on this board) but the fact that any u.s. breeder can record a calf and never report a bw, ww and yw. Im in this boat right now with CO- huge use in one herd but no records beyond bw- just no ww and yw reported.

I think the articles recently written by Patrick Wall are helpful but what would really help the most is just mandatory reporting. By that I mean reporting breeding programs with deadlines- angus folks know what I am talking about. Spring calving herds report AI period and natural turn outs and in's on natural studs.
Now let's look at maybe in Shorthorn AI  history the most  widely used bull - Jake's Proud Jazz. Take 20 minutes and look to see how many used but recorded nothing? I feel like I'm missing out but when I asked how many steers on feed - very few. I doubt Jake Ohlde, Glover are complaining about commission checks each quarter? But look... Jungels is bald - this whole number thing should look a little different for JPJ?? Derek I am sure has pulled his hair out over this too?
While I enjoy this breed and the docility/carcass offered I am often reminded why there are hundreds of shorthorns in production but never registered- I have met more through my travels that make a living on shorthorn.
  Those commerical bull buying  "idiots" of the cattle business are looking to see a live, vigor calf at birth  and a steer that finishes on the fewest days on feed in the shortest amount of time
. I most recently have discussed milk ( no creep) and docility.
Most just take my word for it, but most know I have traveled through alot herds too?
I am looking for shorthorn herd sires that make breeding cattle look easy . Weigh 1900 lbs in working condition as a 3-5 yr olds, solid red and make calving time a pleasure. If you have a herd of shorthorns I have passed by THAT i DESCRIBED.... I WANT TO KNOW, PLEASE CALL ME.  I am passing through IL and MO in about 2 wks, I will head west to NE and then north to Canada.

 

[rarebirdz]

Lets revisit this again for the 3,000th time. 1600 lb mature cows dont work when the groceries are reduced. There are places they do, hell they could work in small numbers here at my place. Whats wrong with a 1900 lb mature bull? Do you know what N Bar Emulation EXT's mature weight was? I doubt it with what your typing in huge letters so we can all see. Why was EXT the most used bull in the HISTORY of the beef business? Oh yeah he produced outstanding females that lived a long time on minimal input. Shorthorns strenght is maternal but as folks choose performance to try and keep up with the Jones, we loose that with each generation. If I was a commercial guy, I would want 1200 lb cows on avg that are long lived and great mamas. But what about the performance side when those calves go to the feedlot? Oh I forgot to mention those calves in my commercial herd are sired by a terminal bull that was bred for performance. I dont think you can have it all as some folks love to say. You need to build your females first. Canada may as well be another planet from the states as far as what is deemed important to a successful cow calf operation. That cold weather for 8 months tends to make your situation quite different from ours.

sue is not personally attacking anybody. She is making the point that EPD manipulation started way before the last fella got burned.

EXT is a bad example he was 2400 lbs mature really it makes ur enite argument invalid

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Do you know this for sure or did you google it? I was always told he weighed a ton from a person that saw the bull alot. What the hell difference does it make between 2000 and 2400? Now 2000 to 3000 is a big difference. Most folks see a 2000 lb bull and think less performance. Maybe somebody fudged the mature weight? Nah that couldnt happen. I could be wrong to and that dude could of been full of poo but I doubt it.  To each is there own. Breed what you like and like to pay the feed bill on.  If you live in the states and are running cows that weigh over 1600 lbs your are n my opinion loosing money by not running smaller cows but more cows. JMO folks. Dont make it set in stone.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So I googled it myself. He had a 550 lb ww and a 1008 lb yw. Not exactly performance like they like em now a days wouldnt u agree? So rarebirdz if my whole statement is bogus.....what did EXT do that made him so popular? It must of been his docility

 

[Doc]

So I googled it myself. He had a 550 lb ww and a 1008 lb yw. Not exactly performance like they like em now a days wouldnt u agree? So rarebirdz if my whole statement is bogus.....what did EXT do that made him so popular? It must of been his docility

TGC, once again you're reading statements that aren't there.I didn't read the word bogus anywhere in his statement.  He interpreted your post like I did, that EXT was 1900 or smaller bull. If he was truly 2400 at mature then it does shoot down your theory that bigger can't perform & won't be used by the commercial man. I don't know anything about Angus , so I don't know anything about EXT. I would say that the ww & yw on EXT are more like what you will find in the majority of the commercial herds out there. I personally don't have a problem with the bigger cattle , that's why I don't like JPJ. He cuts too much size off them for me. I'm not saying that JPJ cattle are bad, just that they are not my type. The good thing is , that because I'm the only one paying my bills then I can raise & buy what I want to & what I can sell . JMO.

 

[aj]

I got back my pen cattle results and was talking to a buddy about the results. There is a wide variety of rations in feedlots because of location and availability of like distiller grains. There are feedlots that apparently feed cattle towards different ends. A feedlot specializing in cab beef generally feeds a little different than other lots. There is also a new additive that appatrently skews visual carcass evaluation. The one local feedlot uses it another doesn't . National won't buy from lots that use it? The guy I talked to has managed three feedlots in 20 years. He said the most important trait to study is death loss. This affects cost of gain and everything. He mentioned a rumour out there of three college boys in the feedlot industry. They got to goofing around with computer readouts and programs. They discovered a big name Angus bull that was all but dominating cab results. they came across the fact that his progency had a 12% death loss vs. the norm of 3% or whatever. Now they are trying to figure this deal out. Most of these sires calves came from one state and 17 different herds. Anyway, I think there is more to profitability of cattle in feedlots because of the size of cows. To jamie I would say prove it. Put together a pen of 40 steers from 1600# cows. Then put together a pen of non mamby pampy cows and evaulate these. Side by side same ration fed within 5 minutes of each other. same lot same country and see what happens. There is no doubt in mind that it is the growth curve of cattle that matters and not cow size. My buddie also had a funny he told me. He said god created a man and a woman. They got up and stretched and looked at each other. Then they died laughing at each other for 15 minutes or so. Ever since then they have been trying to figure out how to get along with each other. Now thats funny! Oh yah I forgot. My buddy said they need to pull dna hairs out of feedlot dead cattle. He said have the academia study this. There are possibly breeds or lines of breeds that excell in living. Docility probably figures into to this deal. So what the hell! We need to gather more data I guess. ;D

 

[knabe]

There is also a new additive that appatrently skews visual carcass evaluation.

hopefully it and others weren't used for the test population for molecular marker discovery for carcass traits by pfizer, mmi, igenity etc.

people are already looking into immune system diversity.  someone told me a long time ago maine's had the worst immune system and the most defects.  the defects can be managed.  the immune system might just be a factor of not being over here for that long similar to the white man coming over with diseases wiping out the indians and the indians giving the white man diseases. 

 

[nate53]

Green Garden Angus out of Ellsworth Kansas bought EXT in 1987, the bull surpassed their expectations as well as everyone elses over the years.  He was so popular for moderate mature size, calving ease,  super udders and really just superb all around females.  His epd's aren't anything special IMO at least not by today's standards but he is as proven as they come and moderate in every way minus the docility!  Take a look at www.greengardenangus.com  Nobody collects more information on cattle than they do!  So if you want to see what 1100-1200 lb. angus cows can produce and how their calves do from birth to the packer take a look at their website!  Are they high performance depends what high performance means to you?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So I googled it myself. He had a 550 lb ww and a 1008 lb yw. Not exactly performance like they like em now a days wouldnt u agree? So rarebirdz if my whole statement is bogus.....what did EXT do that made him so popular? It must of been his docility

TGC, once again you're reading statements that aren't there.I didn't read the word bogus anywhere in his statement.  He interpreted your post like I did, that EXT was 1900 or smaller bull. If he was truly 2400 at mature then it does shoot down your theory that bigger can't perform & won't be used by the commercial man. I don't know anything about Angus , so I don't know anything about EXT. I would say that the ww & yw on EXT are more like what you will find in the majority of the commercial herds out there. I personally don't have a problem with the bigger cattle , that's why I don't like JPJ. He cuts too much size off them for me. I'm not saying that JPJ cattle are bad, just that they are not my type. The good thing is , that because I'm the only one paying my bills then I can raise & buy what I want to & what I can sell . JMO.

Where did I say bigger cant perform? They just take alot more feed. Doc I said the term bogus not the other fella. He said my statement is invalid. I said bogus. Same thing. Sorry i didnt use the exact word.  EXT may weigh more then 329 but they are in the same mold. Female making bulls. aj hit it on the head with his idea about putting them in the same lot and see what happens.  If you mptice all the RS animals dont have eye popping numbers but they are good all around.  Personally i would like to see the results of a test like aj mentioned. It would stop all this silly arguments. If I am wrong I will eat my crow and tip my cap.

Good post nate. I wish i would have been around and bought EXT for 1500 or whatever he sold for. Got to be the most profitable investment in the history of the beef industry.

 

[cattlefarmer]

In my little slice of the world big bulls/cows only work if they are easy keeping  and the momma milks well!  I can think of only one large framed bull that we had that did that over the years!  Those hard keeping big framed cattle don't do the trick in the feed lot either!  To many shorthorn breeders don't feed their steers or cows for that matter, out in a real world setting to know what hard feeding cattle are!!  Until that happens here in the states its a doomed deal!!  We don't need cattle that are as small as the 50's but we don't need those monsters from the 80's either.  The middle of the road is a great place to be, you get hit going both ways!!  JMHO!

 

[Aussie]

It must of been his docility

(lol) That's funny


< This cow is huge. She weighs 800+kgs. She is as fat as hell. So you would say she does not fit the mold Last year she reared twin heifers that were 10 kg under the top heifer not the herd average the top heifer with out any creep. I like em big but they need to perform. I am lucky enough to live in paradise with a small herd I do not have to live on 12 inches of rain or snow although we have had a frost this year.  
<deadhorse> Breed what suits your area, what makes you money and importantly what you enjoy looking at to make a bad day better.