Shorty hf bulls

[aj]

I think the one drug was zilpamex or zilmax or something like that. I spose show cattle have been using it allready but I had never heard of it before.

 

[kfacres]

The accuracy and complete data reporting has been a large issue in the breed for a long time. It's me saying this it's come up in discussion before. I recall Ralph Larson and many other breeders in this topic for years on end. As commerically focused breeders we have discussed ( maybe not on this board) but the fact that any u.s. breeder can record a calf and never report a bw, ww and yw. Im in this boat right now with CO- huge use in one herd but no records beyond bw- just no ww and yw reported.

I think the articles recently written by Patrick Wall are helpful but what would really help the most is just mandatory reporting. By that I mean reporting breeding programs with deadlines- angus folks know what I am talking about. Spring calving herds report AI period and natural turn outs and in's on natural studs.
Now let's look at maybe in Shorthorn AI   history the most  widely used bull - Jake's Proud Jazz. Take 20 minutes and look to see how many used but recorded nothing? I feel like I'm missing out but when I asked how many steers on feed - very few. I doubt Jake Ohlde, Glover are complaining about commission checks each quarter? But look... Jungels is bald - this whole number thing should look a little different for JPJ?? Derek I am sure has pulled his hair out over this too?
While I enjoy this breed and the docility/carcass offered I am often reminded why there are hundreds of shorthorns in production but never registered- I have met more through my travels that make a living on shorthorn.
   Those commerical bull buying  "idiots" of the cattle business are looking to see a live, vigor calf at birth  and a steer that finishes on the fewest days on feed in the shortest amount of time
. I most recently have discussed milk ( no creep) and docility.
Most just take my word for it, but most know I have traveled through alot herds too?
I am looking for shorthorn herd sires that make breeding cattle look easy . Weigh 1900 lbs in working condition as a 3-5 yr olds, solid red and make calving time a pleasure. If you have a herd of shorthorns I have passed by THAT i DESCRIBED.... I WANT TO KNOW, PLEASE CALL ME.  I am passing through IL and MO in about 2 wks, I will head west to NE and then north to Canada.

Other than one or two cows... we have the begginnings to that..  O wait, I forgot... Onlly a small percentage is Shorthorns at our house.. And our newest bull is black (half short),

 

[Okotoks]

Efficiency is important no matter the size. We had two big Simmental cows, both stayed in good flesh and were good milkers but one spent most of her time at the feeder. I have had some big cows Shorthorn that were always in good flesh and still raised a big calf. I have also had cows that were smaller that wean a calf at the top end of the group. I have also seen my share of hard doing small cows. It seems that no matter what your environment or ideal size of animal they need to have good feed conversion. Some breeds have EPD’s to measure this, as well as measuring stayability, but I guess that would be just be silly to contemplate.................

 

[jaimiediamond]

Efficiency is important no matter the size. We had two big Simmental cows, both stayed in good flesh and were good milkers but one spent most of her time at the feeder. I have had some big cows Shorthorn that were always in good flesh and still raised a big calf. I have also had cows that were smaller that wean a calf at the top end of the group. I have also seen my share of hard doing small cows. It seems that no matter what your environment or ideal size of animal they need to have good feed conversion. Some breeds have EPD’s to measure this, as well as measuring stayability, but I guess that would be just be silly to contemplate.................

Well I have been contemplating since yesterday and I have come to the conclusion of...

Short people aren't all fat
Tall people aren't all thin
a 1600lb cow could be a frame 7 with hard fleshing ability
or a 1600lb cow can be a easy fleshing size 5
So really having a weight cut off is ridiculous when there are so many factors which add up to the notorious pounds. 

Attached is EXT information
and a prime example of weight gain... Note the male is taller...

 

[rarebirdz]

Do you know this for sure or did you google it? I was always told he weighed a ton from a person that saw the bull alot. What the hell difference does it make between 2000 and 2400? Now 2000 to 3000 is a big difference. Most folks see a 2000 lb bull and think less performance. Maybe somebody fudged the mature weight? Nah that couldnt happen. I could be wrong to and that dude could of been full of poo but I doubt it.  To each is there own. Breed what you like and like to pay the feed bill on.  If you live in the states and are running cows that weigh over 1600 lbs your are n my opinion loosing money by not running smaller cows but more cows. JMO folks. Dont make it set in stone.

So I googled it myself. He had a 550 lb ww and a 1008 lb yw. Not exactly performance like they like em now a days wouldnt u agree? So rarebirdz if my whole statement is bogus.....what did EXT do that made him so popular? It must of been his docility

ext slightly smaler then a 5 with depth and thickness.  funily enough isnt' that what purebred breeders should aim for? moderate with performance and weight pounds sell tgcc.  some of the shorthorn heifre bulls are a complete joke when it comes to size. I am not talking abut frame I am talking about the pounds ur supposed to be sellign them by. 

Soundness is another issue that seems to have gone into the wind.  CO regardless of what sue says about length is nootta sound moving bull (heres hoping it is founder not genetic)  and he is weak through the gaskin. 

jd that is just nasty

 

[jaimiediamond]

ext slightly smaler then a 5 with depth and thickness.  funily enough isnt' that what purebred breeders should aim for? moderate with performance and weight pounds sell tgcc.  some of the shorthorn heifre bulls are a complete joke when it comes to size. I am not talking abut frame I am talking about the pounds ur supposed to be sellign them by. 

Soundness is another issue that seems to have gone into the wind.  CO regardless of what sue says about length is nootta sound moving bull (heres hoping it is founder not genetic)  and he is weak through the gaskin. 

jd that is just nasty

Oh my bad

I probably should have researched the feed efficiency on both of those specimens of humanity as well. 

 

[nate53]

Jamie please no more people pics, pleaseeeeeeeeeee!

A note on EXT his Mature weight epd was +35 which is above breed average by a little, and yet his mature height epd was .2 which is below breed average. Keep in mind these genetics are 20 some years old, lots of angus cattle have him in their pedigree but there isn't to many new calves out of him 

I see both sides of this argument, we have some big cows and have some smaller cows.  Big easy keeping cows that raise big calves every year I will keep, (logically big cows should raise big calves).   Smaller easy keeping cows that raise big calves these cows make me smile, they are raising good big calves that are very comparable to the big cows calves year after year and these cows are in the same group of cows.  

So if I can have a easy keeping 1100 -1300 lb. cow raise the same size of calf as easy keeping 1500-1700 lb. cow, I will favor the smaller cow every time!  I am not going to toss those good big cows away their still good cows but as far as breeding for the future I can't ignore the effeciencey of the smaller not tiny cows.

Some would say these smaller cows are the exception not the rule, I would say mate exception to exception until we make a new rule! ;D

 

[justintime]

Excellent point Jaimie! Now I was wondering if both people in the picture you posted were on the same ration?  

There are so many exceptions to the rule, that make it extremely hard for anyone to say a 1200 lb cow is best .. or a 1600 lb cow is best. Here are a couple pictures of a cow in our herd, that has probably never weighed less than  1700 on her poorest day. She is now 11 years old and she is about as easy fleshing as they come. BTW, Jaimie, you probably know this cow well, as she is sired by Diamond Captain  Mark 27C. She is Prairie Lane Sparkle 1K and she is the dam of Major Leroy and several other sons and daughters, all of which possess her moderate frame and her ability to pack on pounds.
Major Leroy is now 9 years old and still patrols his harem like a good stud horse.  The first picture shows Sparkle on the day we weaned a big heifer calf off her, and we weighed her that same day and she was 1760 lbs. The second picture was taken the next year in late October and she was weighed about 2 weeks previous to this, and she weighed 1850 lbs. She is a mid 5 frame and everyone who sees her says they were expecting to see a much bigger cow. Her weight suggests she is a big cow, but her frame doesn't. She is a virtual Kenworth on a Volkswagon frame.

I also agree with Nate, in regards to every cow in a person's herd has to be judged on it's own merit. I have a big easy fleshing cow, that everyone, including myself, would agree is probably too big( she is way over a ton... way over!!) . I find it interesting that her calves are always the ones that top our sales and we have sold more embryos from her in recent years than all of our other donors combined. In the past 3 years she has produced 3 natural calves that have sold for a total of $16,000 at auction, and she has produced another $50,000 in embryo and flush sales in the past time. I'm not going to toss this cow away, as I think she is a breeding tool because she has an incredible ability to flesh easily and convert roughages. I don't want all my herd to be as big as her, but I know that if all my cows had the same ability to generate income, this business would be much easier!. On the other end of the scale, I have a tiny cow that I purchased sight unseen in a sale. This cow has never weighed 1000 lbs at any time in her lifetime. She now has her third calf at foot and so far she has produced two bulls that have sold for $3100 and $3500. Her heifer calf this year, also looks very promising. Again, I don't want all my cows to look like this cow, but if all my cows could generate money like this cow has done, this business would be much easier!

So around here, every cow gets to stay, or gets to go to town, based on their own merit, and their ability to work hard with very little but ordinary minimal care. I just love those cows that calve by themselves , breed quickly and never need any individual care, and do it year in an year out.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Do you know this for sure or did you google it? I was always told he weighed a ton from a person that saw the bull alot. What the hell difference does it make between 2000 and 2400? Now 2000 to 3000 is a big difference. Most folks see a 2000 lb bull and think less performance. Maybe somebody fudged the mature weight? Nah that couldnt happen. I could be wrong to and that dude could of been full of poo but I doubt it.  To each is there own. Breed what you like and like to pay the feed bill on.  If you live in the states and are running cows that weigh over 1600 lbs your are n my opinion loosing money by not running smaller cows but more cows. JMO folks. Dont make it set in stone.

So I googled it myself. He had a 550 lb ww and a 1008 lb yw. Not exactly performance like they like em now a days wouldnt u agree? So rarebirdz if my whole statement is bogus.....what did EXT do that made him so popular? It must of been his docility
[/quote

ext slightly smaler then a 5 with depth and thickness.  funily enough isnt' that what purebred breeders should aim for? moderate with performance and weight pounds sell tgcc.  some of the shorthorn heifre bulls are a complete joke when it comes to size. I am not talking abut frame I am talking about the pounds ur supposed to be sellign them by.   

Soundness is another issue that seems to have gone into the wind.  CO regardless of what sue says about length is nootta sound moving bull (heres hoping it is founder not genetic)  and he is weak through the gaskin. 

jd that is just nasty

Well rarebirdz, you seem to have all the answers. Teach me something.....What bulls are you using? Im very curious. Have you seen Captain Obvious in person? I avg  a 600 lb ww  last year using 329, no creep feed. I guess that sucks. Especially that one heifer(free martin) who weighed 750 at 8 months on nothing. I will just keep using these no gaining jokes. Its my herd I will do what I want just like the rest of us. Yes I am sure of it, I want to know what bulls you use.

 

[Doc]

I think the one drug was zilpamex or zilmax or something like that. I spose show cattle have been using it allready but I had never heard of it before.

Aj, it is called Zilmax. Says it has been used in feedlots since 2007. It is now available in Showmaxx from Sullivan. Supposed to give more muscle across the top & hip.

 

[r.n.reed]

Maybe before we develop that elusive stayability epd we should develop an epd for zilmax response.It could be 2 fold,part A could be the amount of muscle added and part B could be the ability to maintain tenderness despite the Zilmax.

 

[Doc]

Maybe before we develop that elusive stayability epd we should develop an epd for zilmax response.It could be 2 fold,part A could be the amount of muscle added and part B could be the ability to maintain tenderness despite the Zilmax.

Don't know anything about zilmax. Just got my Show Circuit today & saw the ad for showmaxx. I geuss color me dumb, but does it affect the the tenderness for sure?

 

[r.n.reed]

Maybe before we develop that elusive stayability epd we should develop an epd for zilmax response.It could be 2 fold,part A could be the amount of muscle added and part B could be the ability to maintain tenderness despite the Zilmax.

Don't know anything about zilmax. Just got my Show Circuit today & saw the ad for showmaxx. I geuss color me dumb, but does it affect the the tenderness for sure?

This is the first I have heard of it and I figured if it enhanced tenderness and had been around since 2007 it would be pretty common knowledge by now as well as the fact that it is apparently  used on cattle directed toward the lean rather than the quality markets.

 

[aj]

Could you manufacture cattle with the drug? Could you take a 12 rea bull and turn him into a 14 incher? Is it legal? Did sullivan use it on his pens bulls. Those cattle sure had some numbers. If you overuse it could it be bad for a bulls longevity or health. I always hear stories of show cattle falling apart after their glorious carreer. Do you have to do this to compete in scan numbers in the pen bulls? Any breed. Are show cattle tested for drugs? Can you use it on females without hurting their fertility?

 

[aandtcattle]

 

Soundness is another issue that seems to have gone into the wind.  CO regardless of what sue says about length is nootta sound moving bull (heres hoping it is founder not genetic)  and he is weak through the gaskin. 

jd that is just nasty


[/quote]
Rarebirdz,
Do you even know how to begin to analyze soundness in cattle?  I personally do not see a problem with the soundness of CO.  I don't see a problem with his dam or sisters either.  Nor did I see a problem with his 12 year old grand-dam when I saw her north of Billings.  Although I never saw his sire, GFS Red Cloud 7026, in person, the fact that he naturally bred cows to the age of 10 or 11 kind of speaks for itself.  Until you know wether or not something is not sound, just shut your pie-hole.  If you need a lesson in what sound cattle look like and walk like come on out.  I am with trevorgrey and his question to you.  What super-sound moving bulls are you using this year?

 

[Doc]

Could you manufacture cattle with the drug? Could you take a 12 rea bull and turn him into a 14 incher? Is it legal? Did sullivan use it on his pens bulls. Those cattle sure had some numbers. If you overuse it could it be bad for a bulls longevity or health. I always hear stories of show cattle falling apart after their glorious carreer. Do you have to do this to compete in scan numbers in the pen bulls? Any breed. Are show cattle tested for drugs? Can you use it on females without hurting their fertility?

AJ, The ad says a "3 day withdrawal period. Do not use in animals intended for breeding purposes. Check with your show rules for specific withdrawal period." The web site is www.ShowMaxxCattle.com .

 

[aj]

Cool....the ad says you can't win without it.  Hmmm..........maybe if I took a carload of Durham reds to Denver with 18 inch rea's I could win grand champ(if there were no other entries). ;D

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Still waiting to be enlightened by the rarebirdz................the silence is deafening

 

[sue]

The accuracy and complete data reporting has been a large issue in the breed for a long time. It's me saying this it's come up in discussion before. I recall Ralph Larson and many other breeders in this topic for years on end. As commerically focused breeders we have discussed ( maybe not on this board) but the fact that any u.s. breeder can record a calf and never report a bw, ww and yw. Im in this boat right now with CO- huge use in one herd but no records beyond bw- just no ww and yw reported.

I think the articles recently written by Patrick Wall are helpful but what would really help the most is just mandatory reporting. By that I mean reporting breeding programs with deadlines- angus folks know what I am talking about. Spring calving herds report AI period and natural turn outs and in's on natural studs.
Now let's look at maybe in Shorthorn AI   history the most  widely used bull - Jake's Proud Jazz. Take 20 minutes and look to see how many used but recorded nothing? I feel like I'm missing out but when I asked how many steers on feed - very few. I doubt Jake Ohlde, Glover are complaining about commission checks each quarter? But look... Jungels is bald - this whole number thing should look a little different for JPJ?? Derek I am sure has pulled his hair out over this too?
While I enjoy this breed and the docility/carcass offered I am often reminded why there are hundreds of shorthorns in production but never registered- I have met more through my travels that make a living on shorthorn.
   Those commerical bull buying  "idiots" of the cattle business are looking to see a live, vigor calf at birth  and a steer that finishes on the fewest days on feed in the shortest amount of time
. I most recently have discussed milk ( no creep) and docility.
Most just take my word for it, but most know I have traveled through alot herds too?
I am looking for shorthorn herd sires that make breeding cattle look easy . Weigh 1900 lbs in working condition as a 3-5 yr olds, solid red and make calving time a pleasure. If you have a herd of shorthorns I have passed by THAT i DESCRIBED.... I WANT TO KNOW, PLEASE CALL ME.  I am passing through IL and MO in about 2 wks, I will head west to NE and then north to Canada.

hEY...  thanks for the replys. I plan to return through Iowa the weekend of June 11.  Really  unregistered shorthorn herds too  and would love to see those  sh x angus herds as well .  If you leave a message just include the address as well.  I just have to be home in time to breed nate53's black babies by june 15th.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

What you breeding for nate? I dont know him from Adam but I sure like to read what he has to say. <beer>