Shorty hf bulls

[aj]

Just kidding. ;D

 

[DRB]

And now we can put this baby to bed. Thank you sir.


BTW, aussie bulls are alright. I forgot about the kookaboora bull. I think the grove or something like that. I liked him. Solid red.
It seems to me as a outsider lookin in. Cows in down under seem to work well in Canada/ Europe and vice versa. Maybe that just means us yankees need to drink another one and revisit our genetics....................................nah. Or it just means we have very differnt circumstances in which we must try and turn a profit.

I for one have ran my mouth enough on this thread. I would like to see it go away. My way isnt the only way but it sure is a different way. As long as we all stop and think a little bit then I can live with that.

So whats the next massive shorthorn thread? shorty age verification? Oh boy. Two articles in one issue from the big chiefs is sure sending alot of smoke signals.

Thanks for your approval of just one of the good Aussie bulls trevor. You might recall the Kookaburra progeny pics I have posted on several occassions. He's just one of the 'heifer' bulls whose calves really go on and perform. A Kooka son actually topped the National sale this year at $27,000, and he was by no means a small bull - 1080kg, 16mm and 12mm fat on the rump and rib, and 138sq cm EMA, and the top 5 or 10% for growth, carcase, RBY and all $indexes. Interestingly he has two shots of Blue Ridge Tritan, as well as Stonelea Winchester and TNT Fastrak 4U on the dam's side.

Hi Thunder - I get the general impression that alot of Aussie shorthorns are of the bigger framed type, similar to those in the UK etc.  Just wondering what you think - are there many 1200lb Shorthorn cows in Aussie?
Thx

 

[thunderdownunder]

Hi Thunder - I get the general impression that alot of Aussie shorthorns are of the bigger framed type, similar to those in the UK etc.  Just wondering what you think - are there many 1200lb Shorthorn cows in Aussie?
Thx

Well DRB, I just did a conversion of pound to kilograms, and it tells me that 1200lb is equal to 544.31kg. If I had cows that size they would have to be a Square Meater or something similar (albeit a fat one!)! By no means are our cows massive, large framed animals, but they certainly weigh a bit more than that.
When you say similar to the UK, there are a lot of variables. My immediate response is that our Shorthorns aren't like theirs (large framed, coarse boned etc). But then when I stop and think, there are a lot of UK Shorthorns very similar to ours. I guess it all depends on your program.
Personally, my cattle are what I call moderate framed, easy fleshing, "momma" cows. Yes, there are a few bigger ones, but you need to have them (and some smaller types), because they all serve a purpose. None of my cows would weigh less than 600kg in POOR condition. When they're looking good, they're from about 690kg to 800kg. I do have one who would weigh more, only because she is big... too big for my taste but joined to the right bull, she produces some crackers- which is why she's still around.
My own cows calve unassisted, and put everything into raising their calves. Sometimes a couple of them can look pretty ordinary when they're raising a calf, but they wean calves that are well above 50% of their own weight, get back in calf almost immediately, and pick up condition within a week or two of weaning calves. I have pics of one of my cows taken when we weaned her calf, and then two weeks later, and you wouldn't know she's the same cow. She went from looking like a dairy cow to prime condition in that time. In fact, we shifted them to lesser pasture!

So, that's a bit about me and my cows. I probably haven't answered your question but as I said, every program is different. Doesn't matter what breed you're in, there are going to be people with big, medium, small and dinky cattle!

 

[aj]

When you use the word "dinky"..........aren't you passive agressively attacking by being cutesy you ole thunderuski?

 

[DRB]

Hi Thunder - I get the general impression that alot of Aussie shorthorns are of the bigger framed type, similar to those in the UK etc.   Just wondering what you think - are there many 1200lb Shorthorn cows in Aussie?
Thx

Well DRB, I just did a conversion of pound to kilograms, and it tells me that 1200lb is equal to 544.31kg. If I had cows that size they would have to be a Square Meater or something similar (albeit a fat one!)! By no means are our cows massive, large framed animals, but they certainly weigh a bit more than that.
When you say similar to the UK, there are a lot of variables. My immediate response is that our Shorthorns aren't like theirs (large framed, coarse boned etc). But then when I stop and think, there are a lot of UK Shorthorns very similar to ours. I guess it all depends on your program.
Personally, my cattle are what I call moderate framed, easy fleshing, "momma" cows. Yes, there are a few bigger ones, but you need to have them (and some smaller types), because they all serve a purpose. None of my cows would weigh less than 600kg in POOR condition. When they're looking good, they're from about 690kg to 800kg. I do have one who would weigh more, only because she is big... too big for my taste but joined to the right bull, she produces some crackers- which is why she's still around.
My own cows calve unassisted, and put everything into raising their calves. Sometimes a couple of them can look pretty ordinary when they're raising a calf, but they wean calves that are well above 50% of their own weight, get back in calf almost immediately, and pick up condition within a week or two of weaning calves. I have pics of one of my cows taken when we weaned her calf, and then two weeks later, and you wouldn't know she's the same cow. She went from looking like a dairy cow to prime condition in that time. In fact, we shifted them to lesser pasture!

So, that's a bit about me and my cows. I probably haven't answered your question but as I said, every program is different. Doesn't matter what breed you're in, there are going to be people with big, medium, small and dinky cattle!

Thanks for the response Thunder.  Maybe if 1000lbs (450kg) is small and 2000lbs (900kg) is big, then moderate might be in the middle.  Perhaps frame score is a better measure to consider as actual weight will vary depending on time of year etc.  My recollection is that in the UK they had many 6 to 7 and some 8 frame cattle (large).  Whereas say Argentina they are almost all 4-5 frame (small).  I was thinking that the Aussie cattle I've seen were more around the +/- 7 frame area.  Anyway, as you say there is plenty of variation in terms of what works where etc.  Also I believe the conversation is moot for many many cattleman since they don't actually weight or measure their cattle and commonly refer more to what they 'think' they have...

 

[thunderdownunder]

Hi Thunder - I get the general impression that alot of Aussie shorthorns are of the bigger framed type, similar to those in the UK etc.   Just wondering what you think - are there many 1200lb Shorthorn cows in Aussie?
Thx

Well DRB, I just did a conversion of pound to kilograms, and it tells me that 1200lb is equal to 544.31kg. If I had cows that size they would have to be a Square Meater or something similar (albeit a fat one!)! By no means are our cows massive, large framed animals, but they certainly weigh a bit more than that.
When you say similar to the UK, there are a lot of variables. My immediate response is that our Shorthorns aren't like theirs (large framed, coarse boned etc). But then when I stop and think, there are a lot of UK Shorthorns very similar to ours. I guess it all depends on your program.
Personally, my cattle are what I call moderate framed, easy fleshing, "momma" cows. Yes, there are a few bigger ones, but you need to have them (and some smaller types), because they all serve a purpose. None of my cows would weigh less than 600kg in POOR condition. When they're looking good, they're from about 690kg to 800kg. I do have one who would weigh more, only because she is big... too big for my taste but joined to the right bull, she produces some crackers- which is why she's still around.
My own cows calve unassisted, and put everything into raising their calves. Sometimes a couple of them can look pretty ordinary when they're raising a calf, but they wean calves that are well above 50% of their own weight, get back in calf almost immediately, and pick up condition within a week or two of weaning calves. I have pics of one of my cows taken when we weaned her calf, and then two weeks later, and you wouldn't know she's the same cow. She went from looking like a dairy cow to prime condition in that time. In fact, we shifted them to lesser pasture!

So, that's a bit about me and my cows. I probably haven't answered your question but as I said, every program is different. Doesn't matter what breed you're in, there are going to be people with big, medium, small and dinky cattle!

Thanks for the response Thunder.   Maybe if 1000lbs (450kg) is small and 2000lbs (900kg) is big, then moderate might be in the middle.  Perhaps frame score is a better measure to consider as actual weight will vary depending on time of year etc.  My recollection is that in the UK they had many 6 to 7 and some 8 frame cattle (large).  Whereas say Argentina they are almost all 4-5 frame (small).  I was thinking that the Aussie cattle I've seen were more around the +/- 7 frame area.  Anyway, as you say there is plenty of variation in terms of what works where etc.  Also I believe the conversation is moot for many many cattleman since they don't actually weight or measure their cattle and commonly refer more to what they 'think' they have...

I'm not a big fan of frame scoring cattle. I find it can scare people off too easily when you say you have a frame 9, or a frame 4, which is why I tend to avoid the subject. What's more important to me is the way they are put together, and making sure they're balanced and in proportion. Weight pays, so if I can get more weight on a medium framed animal, that's exactly what I'll go for, all things being equal.
A lot of Aussie cattle would be around the frame 7 mark, but there are also a few breeding to the frame 5 mark, and others going to the other extreme. I say if it works for you, and it works for your clients, then don't change just to please your critics. I think the silent majority on here would agree with me. As I said before, we all have our own programs and goals we are breeding towards, as well as very different production systems, and I believe there is a place for most types.

 

[Okotoks]

Hi Thunder - I get the general impression that alot of Aussie shorthorns are of the bigger framed type, similar to those in the UK etc.   Just wondering what you think - are there many 1200lb Shorthorn cows in Aussie?
Thx

Well DRB, I just did a conversion of pound to kilograms, and it tells me that 1200lb is equal to 544.31kg. If I had cows that size they would have to be a Square Meater or something similar (albeit a fat one!)! By no means are our cows massive, large framed animals, but they certainly weigh a bit more than that.
When you say similar to the UK, there are a lot of variables. My immediate response is that our Shorthorns aren't like theirs (large framed, coarse boned etc). But then when I stop and think, there are a lot of UK Shorthorns very similar to ours. I guess it all depends on your program.
Personally, my cattle are what I call moderate framed, easy fleshing, "momma" cows. Yes, there are a few bigger ones, but you need to have them (and some smaller types), because they all serve a purpose. None of my cows would weigh less than 600kg in POOR condition. When they're looking good, they're from about 690kg to 800kg. I do have one who would weigh more, only because she is big... too big for my taste but joined to the right bull, she produces some crackers- which is why she's still around.
My own cows calve unassisted, and put everything into raising their calves. Sometimes a couple of them can look pretty ordinary when they're raising a calf, but they wean calves that are well above 50% of their own weight, get back in calf almost immediately, and pick up condition within a week or two of weaning calves. I have pics of one of my cows taken when we weaned her calf, and then two weeks later, and you wouldn't know she's the same cow. She went from looking like a dairy cow to prime condition in that time. In fact, we shifted them to lesser pasture!

So, that's a bit about me and my cows. I probably haven't answered your question but as I said, every program is different. Doesn't matter what breed you're in, there are going to be people with big, medium, small and dinky cattle!

Thanks for the response Thunder.   Maybe if 1000lbs (450kg) is small and 2000lbs (900kg) is big, then moderate might be in the middle.  Perhaps frame score is a better measure to consider as actual weight will vary depending on time of year etc.  My recollection is that in the UK they had many 6 to 7 and some 8 frame cattle (large).  Whereas say Argentina they are almost all 4-5 frame (small).  I was thinking that the Aussie cattle I've seen were more around the +/- 7 frame area.  Anyway, as you say there is plenty of variation in terms of what works where etc.  Also I believe the conversation is moot for many many cattleman since they don't actually weight or measure their cattle and commonly refer more to what they 'think' they have...

I'm not a big fan of frame scoring cattle. I find it can scare people off too easily when you say you have a frame 9, or a frame 4, which is why I tend to avoid the subject. What's more important to me is the way they are put together, and making sure they're balanced and in proportion. Weight pays, so if I can get more weight on a medium framed animal, that's exactly what I'll go for, all things being equal.
A lot of Aussie cattle would be around the frame 7 mark, but there are also a few breeding to the frame 5 mark, and others going to the other extreme. I say if it works for you, and it works for your clients, then don't change just to please your critics. I think the silent majority on here would agree with me. As I said before, we all have our own programs and goals we are breeding towards, as well as very different production systems, and I believe there is a place for most types.

I think you are right on frame score. In the selection of the "belt buckle cattle" not nearly enough attention was paid to performance and feed efficiency. Other traits like feet and udder development were often ignored. When the rush to bigger cattle came too much attention was paid to frame score and not nearly enough to function and efficiency. I have never seen a animal sold by inches yet at the local auction market.

 

[coyote]

Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.

 

[thunderdownunder]

I have never seen a animal sold by inches yet at the local auction market.

And that right there is the crux of the matter  (clapping)

 

[kfacres]

I have never seen a animal sold by inches yet at the local auction market.

And that right there is the crux of the matter  (clapping)

and more times than not... more inches means more bone to potentially pack meat/ weight onto. 

And you know, now that I think about it, "I've never seen an animal sold by anything other than weight at the local auction market." 

 

[DRB]

I have never seen a animal sold by inches yet at the local auction market.

And that right there is the crux of the matter  (clapping)

and more times than not... more inches means more bone to potentially pack meat/ weight onto. 

And you know, now that I think about it, "I've never seen an animal sold by anything other than weight at the local auction market." 

Yes, yes, commercial cattle at the auction mart usually sell by the pound (I've seen plenty of bred comm females sell by $ per head though, not weight).  But that isn't the point.  I thought we were mostly purebred producers here?  If your goal is to push down the scales the most, get a Short X Angus F1 female and breed her to a Charolais or Simmi bull, I don't think any straight bred female could beat that...  If you are a purebred producer, I'd hope that many of your sales aren't by the pound at the local auction market...  The goal should be to breed a consistent type towards a goal (ie the reason we actually have different breeds in the first place).  Are you breeding towards that part of the commercial momma cow, or towards the terminal cross, or towards calving ease bulls?  Or towards some other vague goal/ideal?  I like to see a firm direction/purpose to a breeding program, even if I don't like/want the resulting genetics.

 

[Okotoks]

Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.

38Y is an interesting looking calf. What's his dam's name? I'd like to look her pedigree up.Any pics of her?

 

[coyote]

                                    EIONMOR IDEAL 69F X-M466444- 
                  MURIDALE BUSTER 14K X-[CAN]M468530-   
                                  MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181- 
  MURIDALE BUSTER 2ND 76P X-[CAN]M472863-     
                                  GLORY-JAY MC GAMALIEL 8G X-[CAN]M466923- 
              MURIDALE TRISH 11L X-[CAN]F676574-   
                                  MURIDALE IRIS 38B X-F659469- 
MURIDALE SECRET 12W       
                              SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295- 
            SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-   
                              SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680
  MURIDALE SECRET 72T X-[CAN]F684050-   
                              ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315- 
              MURIDALE SECRET 89P X-[CAN]F680376-   
                              DIAMOND SECRET DELIGHT 5D X-F664654- 

 

[Okotoks]

                                   EIONMOR IDEAL 69F X-M466444-  
                 MURIDALE BUSTER 14K X-[CAN]M468530-    
                                  MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-  
  MURIDALE BUSTER 2ND 76P X-[CAN]M472863-      
                                 GLORY-JAY MC GAMALIEL 8G X-[CAN]M466923-  
              MURIDALE TRISH 11L X-[CAN]F676574-    
                                 MURIDALE IRIS 38B X-F659469-  
MURIDALE SECRET 12W        
                              SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
           SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                              SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680
  MURIDALE SECRET 72T X-[CAN]F684050-    
                              ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
             MURIDALE SECRET 89P X-[CAN]F680376-    
                             DIAMOND SECRET DELIGHT 5D X-F664654-  

Nice pedigree, the 38Y calf is linebred to Ultimate 130K, Bonanza and the dam of Buster, Muridale Robin57G (clapping)

                         SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
             SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                        SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680-  
  MURIDALE BRIGGS 91T X-[CAN]M473333-      
                          ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
              MURIDALE SASHA 61P X-[CAN]F680367-    
                          MURIDALE SONYA 34G X-F669260-  
MURIDALE BRIGGS 25W        
                           EIONMOR ULTRA 88G X-[CAN]M467008-  
                ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-    
                          ALTA CEDAR SILVER GEM 3H -[CAN]F671808-  
  MURIDALE ROBBY 12P -[CAN]F680357-      
                              RAMSHOLT REWARD 30E X-M465419-  
                 MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-    
                            MURIDALE DOVE 33C -F662190-  
38Y
                            EIONMOR IDEAL 69F X-M466444-  
                 MURIDALE BUSTER 14K X-[CAN]M468530-    
                                  MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-  
  MURIDALE BUSTER 2ND 76P X-[CAN]M472863-      
                                 GLORY-JAY MC GAMALIEL 8G X-[CAN]M466923-  
              MURIDALE TRISH 11L X-[CAN]F676574-    
                                 MURIDALE IRIS 38B X-F659469-  
MURIDALE SECRET 12W        
                              SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
           SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                              SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680
  MURIDALE SECRET 72T X-[CAN]F684050-    
                              ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
             MURIDALE SECRET 89P X-[CAN]F680376-    
                             DIAMOND SECRET DELIGHT 5D X-F664654-  

 

[JTM]

                                   EIONMOR IDEAL 69F X-M466444-  
                 MURIDALE BUSTER 14K X-[CAN]M468530-    
                                  MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-  
  MURIDALE BUSTER 2ND 76P X-[CAN]M472863-      
                                 GLORY-JAY MC GAMALIEL 8G X-[CAN]M466923-  
              MURIDALE TRISH 11L X-[CAN]F676574-    
                                 MURIDALE IRIS 38B X-F659469-  
MURIDALE SECRET 12W        
                              SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
           SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                              SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680
  MURIDALE SECRET 72T X-[CAN]F684050-    
                              ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
             MURIDALE SECRET 89P X-[CAN]F680376-    
                             DIAMOND SECRET DELIGHT 5D X-F664654-  

Nice pedigree, the 38Y calf is linebred to Ultimate 130K, Bonanza and the dam of Buster, Muridale Robin57G (clapping)

                         SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
             SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                        SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680-  
  MURIDALE BRIGGS 91T X-[CAN]M473333-      
                          ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
              MURIDALE SASHA 61P X-[CAN]F680367-    
                          MURIDALE SONYA 34G X-F669260-  
MURIDALE BRIGGS 25W        
                           EIONMOR ULTRA 88G X-[CAN]M467008-  
                ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-    
                          ALTA CEDAR SILVER GEM 3H -[CAN]F671808-  
  MURIDALE ROBBY 12P -[CAN]F680357-      
                              RAMSHOLT REWARD 30E X-M465419-  
                 MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-    
                            MURIDALE DOVE 33C -F662190-  
38Y
                            EIONMOR IDEAL 69F X-M466444-  
                 MURIDALE BUSTER 14K X-[CAN]M468530-    
                                  MURIDALE ROBIN 57G X-[CAN]F671181-  
  MURIDALE BUSTER 2ND 76P X-[CAN]M472863-      
                                 GLORY-JAY MC GAMALIEL 8G X-[CAN]M466923-  
              MURIDALE TRISH 11L X-[CAN]F676574-    
                                 MURIDALE IRIS 38B X-F659469-  
MURIDALE SECRET 12W        
                              SASKVALLEY ULTRA 12J X-[CAN]M468295-  
           SASKVALLEY BONANZA 219M X-[CAN]M469921-    
                              SASKVALLEY BRENDA 218K X-[CAN]F675680
  MURIDALE SECRET 72T X-[CAN]F684050-    
                              ALTA CEDAR ULTIMATE 130K -[CAN]M468315-  
             MURIDALE SECRET 89P X-[CAN]F680376-    
                             DIAMOND SECRET DELIGHT 5D X-F664654-  

Coyote, that 38Y bull is very nice. I like him a lot. What are your plans with him? Not that I'm in the market but just interested because he seems like a very marketable bull. (thumbsup)

 

[aandtcattle]

I have never seen a animal sold by inches yet at the local auction market.

And that right there is the crux of the matter  (clapping)

and more times than not... more inches means more bone to potentially pack meat/ weight onto. 

And you know, now that I think about it, "I've never seen an animal sold by anything other than weight at the local auction market." 

Yes, yes, commercial cattle at the auction mart usually sell by the pound (I've seen plenty of bred comm females sell by $ per head though, not weight).  But that isn't the point.  I thought we were mostly purebred producers here?  If your goal is to push down the scales the most, get a Short X Angus F1 female and breed her to a Charolais or Simmi bull, I don't think any straight bred female could beat that...  If you are a purebred producer, I'd hope that many of your sales aren't by the pound at the local auction market...  The goal should be to breed a consistent type towards a goal (ie the reason we actually have different breeds in the first place).  Are you breeding towards that part of the commercial momma cow, or towards the terminal cross, or towards calving ease bulls?  Or towards some other vague goal/ideal?  I like to see a firm direction/purpose to a breeding program, even if I don't like/want the resulting genetics.

Any commercial guy will tell you, "It's not how much they weigh when you sell em, it's what you have in em that really matters."
I preach efficiency every day.  I, like most commercial cattlemen, want a cow that weans a high percentage of her bodyweight (50-60%), holds her flesh while doing so (on minimum supplements), breeds back in a timely fashion and continues to do this for 10-12 years.  Is this too much to ask?  I don't think so, but I do beleive that it is much easier for a small to moderate framed female to do this on a consistent basis.  Which is most realistic:  a 1000 pound cow weaning a 500 pound calf?  a 1200 pound cow weaning a 600 pound calf?  a 1400 pound cow eaning a 700 pound calf, etc., etc.?

 

[coyote]

JTM , we may try him on some heifers next spring then we are planning on selling him in the Who's Your Daddy bull sale.

 

[aandtcattle]

Hey there coyote!  I agree with JTM, 38Y is a stud!  How's it goin up there?

 

[RyanChandler]

Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.

Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

 

[justintime]

Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.

Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

Personally, I don't think this tail set is anything to worry about. I am suspecting that part of what this picture is showing is just how he was standing when the picture was taken. Personally, I would far rather see a tail set like this, than a tail head that is set down low almost between the pin bones. I think a bull with this kind of tail setting will sire daughters with good slope to their pelvic region which will lead to cows that calve with problems on a consistent basis.