Shorty hf bulls

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kfacres

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justintime said:
Chandler said:
coyote said:
Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.
Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

Personally, I don't think this tail set is anything to worry about. I am suspecting that part of what this picture is showing is just how he was standing when the picture was taken. Personally, I would far rather see a tail set like this, than a tail head that is set down low almost between the pin bones. I think a bull with this kind of tail setting will sire daughters with good slope to their pelvic region which will lead to cows that calve with problems on a consistent basis.

so would you prefer cranking calves out of cows with a super high tailset- which is a result of being to narrow through the pins-- or one with a sloppy ass- and incorrect pelvic slope?  Does it matter, you're still pulling their calves.
 

r.n.reed

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Coyote,your calf is definitely an eye catcher,Chandler his pose could be contributing to that high tail head,only Coyote can tell us for sure.My experience has been that a rear like the one on the bull pictured below has always been associated with calving ease.Not popular in the ring but profitable on the farm.
 

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trevorgreycattleco

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Im curious what the text book says that they teach one in college? What is the preferred type. I like the bull calf and I know I like mr reeds cattle. Im just curious as to what is deemed "proper"? shep and shorthorn, this is a question for all you livestock judging folks I guess. Pop quiz if you will.
 

justintime

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sheps & shorthorns said:
justintime said:
Chandler said:
coyote said:
Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.
Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

Personally, I don't think this tail set is anything to worry about. I am suspecting that part of what this picture is showing is just how he was standing when the picture was taken. Personally, I would far rather see a tail set like this, than a tail head that is set down low almost between the pin bones. I think a bull with this kind of tail setting will sire daughters with good slope to their pelvic region which will lead to cows that calve with problems on a consistent basis.

so would you prefer cranking calves out of cows with a super high tailset- which is a result of being to narrow through the pins-- or one with a sloppy ass- and incorrect pelvic slope?  Does it matter, you're still pulling their calves.

IMO, the bull in question here of coyote's does not have a high tail head. When it comes to having calving problems, I would far rather have a female with a tail head like this bull  rather than a tail head that is crammed down with little space between her tailhead and her pin bones. You also need to have the pins lower than the hook bones, similar to what most earred cattle have if you want to have true calving ease. If people keep selectin for these females with the wrong shape to their rumps and tail heads, we will still be discussing calving problems 2 decades from now, and we will be trying to find bulls that produce 45 lb calves. Calving ease is as much about proper shape of the female and in particular, her reproductive tract, as it is birth weight of the calf ( within reason of course).  I am not saying that a real high tail head is right either. Every trait needs to be considered in optimum amounts and not extremes.
 

Okotoks

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trevorgreycattleco said:
Im curious what the text book says that they teach one in college? What is the preferred type. I like the bull calf and I know I like mr reeds cattle. Im just curious as to what is deemed "proper"? shep and shorthorn, this is a question for all you livestock judging folks I guess. Pop quiz if you will.
It should be a question for judges but the irony is that in almost every species there are judges that really can't apply what they see in the ring to what works in the pasture. I'd rather get advise on this from JIT,  R.N Reed, aandt etc. In showing types and fads tend to trend,  remember the 80' s when fins were put on the tail head to emphasize height and to give the appearance of a high tail head.
 

kfacres

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Okotoks said:
trevorgreycattleco said:
Im curious what the text book says that they teach one in college? What is the preferred type. I like the bull calf and I know I like mr reeds cattle. Im just curious as to what is deemed "proper"? shep and shorthorn, this is a question for all you livestock judging folks I guess. Pop quiz if you will.
It should be a question for judges but the irony is that in almost every species there are judges that really can't apply what they see in the ring to what works in the pasture. I'd rather get advise on this from JIT,  R.N Reed, aandt etc. In showing types and fads tend to trend,  remember the 80' s when fins were put on the tail head to emphasize height and to give the appearance of a high tail head.

I would agree with this... to expand on what we're 'taught'. 

you should be able to make a string straight like from the top of the poll, all the way to the tailhead, it should have some 'swoop' to it, like a jumprope, but not as much as many showy type animals exhibit. 

Personally, the pic of the red bull, from RN reed...  is pretty danged close to my ideal...  I see nothing wrong with that, even if in a showring. 

justintime said:
sheps & shorthorns said:
justintime said:
Chandler said:
coyote said:
Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.
Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

Personally, I don't think this tail set is anything to worry about. I am suspecting that part of what this picture is showing is just how he was standing when the picture was taken. Personally, I would far rather see a tail set like this, than a tail head that is set down low almost between the pin bones. I think a bull with this kind of tail setting will sire daughters with good slope to their pelvic region which will lead to cows that calve with problems on a consistent basis.

so would you prefer cranking calves out of cows with a super high tailset- which is a result of being to narrow through the pins-- or one with a sloppy ass- and incorrect pelvic slope?  Does it matter, you're still pulling their calves.

IMO, the bull in question here of coyote's does not have a high tail head. When it comes to having calving problems, I would far rather have a female with a tail head like this bull  rather than a tail head that is crammed down with little space between her tailhead and her pin bones. You also need to have the pins lower than the hook bones, similar to what most earred cattle have if you want to have true calving ease. If people keep selectin for these females with the wrong shape to their rumps and tail heads, we will still be discussing calving problems 2 decades from now, and we will be trying to find bulls that produce 45 lb calves. Calving ease is as much about proper shape of the female and in particular, her reproductive tract, as it is birth weight of the calf ( within reason of course).  I am not saying that a real high tail head is right either. Every trait needs to be considered in optimum amounts and not extremes.

wouldn't you add shape of calf, head, bone, etc... to the list as being just as important as pelvic.?
 

justintime

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sheps & shorthorns said:
Okotoks said:
trevorgreycattleco said:
Im curious what the text book says that they teach one in college? What is the preferred type. I like the bull calf and I know I like mr reeds cattle. Im just curious as to what is deemed "proper"? shep and shorthorn, this is a question for all you livestock judging folks I guess. Pop quiz if you will.
It should be a question for judges but the irony is that in almost every species there are judges that really can't apply what they see in the ring to what works in the pasture. I'd rather get advise on this from JIT,  R.N Reed, aandt etc. In showing types and fads tend to trend,  remember the 80' s when fins were put on the tail head to emphasize height and to give the appearance of a high tail head.

I would agree with this... to expand on what we're 'taught'. 

you should be able to make a string straight like from the top of the poll, all the way to the tailhead, it should have some 'swoop' to it, like a jumprope, but not as much as many showy type animals exhibit. 

Personally, the pic of the red bull, from RN reed...  is pretty danged close to my ideal...  I see nothing wrong with that, even if in a showring. 

justintime said:
sheps & shorthorns said:
justintime said:
Chandler said:
coyote said:
Muridale Briggs 25W was one of the bulls we used on our heifers last year. 38Y  is one of his calves out of a Buster 2nd 76P daughter, he had a 80lbs BW.
Nice calf!  I have a JSF Jazz Star 73U bull calf with a similar tail set.  I personally prefer it to be more level.  My question is, is there a general consensus as far as a 'correct'  tail set as far as functionality or is it purely an aesthetical preference?

Personally, I don't think this tail set is anything to worry about. I am suspecting that part of what this picture is showing is just how he was standing when the picture was taken. Personally, I would far rather see a tail set like this, than a tail head that is set down low almost between the pin bones. I think a bull with this kind of tail setting will sire daughters with good slope to their pelvic region which will lead to cows that calve with problems on a consistent basis.

so would you prefer cranking calves out of cows with a super high tailset- which is a result of being to narrow through the pins-- or one with a sloppy ass- and incorrect pelvic slope?  Does it matter, you're still pulling their calves.

IMO, the bull in question here of coyote's does not have a high tail head. When it comes to having calving problems, I would far rather have a female with a tail head like this bull  rather than a tail head that is crammed down with little space between her tailhead and her pin bones. You also need to have the pins lower than the hook bones, similar to what most earred cattle have if you want to have true calving ease. If people keep selectin for these females with the wrong shape to their rumps and tail heads, we will still be discussing calving problems 2 decades from now, and we will be trying to find bulls that produce 45 lb calves. Calving ease is as much about proper shape of the female and in particular, her reproductive tract, as it is birth weight of the calf ( within reason of course).  I am not saying that a real high tail head is right either. Every trait needs to be considered in optimum amounts and not extremes.

wouldn't you add shape of calf, head, bone, etc... to the list as being just as important as pelvic.?


I agree 100%. All these things are important in having a trouble free calving season.
 

sue

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RS Girl 57th - dam of  "034 " passed on earlier this fall.   
 

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Okotoks

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Has anyone used this bull or seen calves by him? Sutherland Durango 813

          3807924 PM PHA-F TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER 57
  *x3989821 PHA-F TH-F NPS DURANGO 774 CBH ET
        *x3869997 PS PHA-F TH-F KA'BA ROSE T90
Sire: *x4039020 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND DURANGO 721 ET
        x3909543 PMSY PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN SUPER DAZZLER ET
  x3980542 TH-F WF CLASSY ISOBEL W26G
        x3957769 MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL34TH
SUTHERLAND DURANGO 813     
        x3902216 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET
  x3959923 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND BUNDABERG ET
        x3947586 PS PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL38TH ET
Dam: x4039398 PD SUTHERLAND MARGIE 714 ET
        3684142 TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER
  3967030 PHA-F TH-F AF SHANNON MARGIE 587 ET
        3702855 PS AF SHANNON MARGIE 924
CE -1.3  BW 1.6    WW18  YW30  MILK6  MW 14  MCE-5.9
 

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trevorgreycattleco

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I have spoken with Mr Ragsdale several times. He speaks very highly of the bull. I was going to use him(A.I) until I got lucky and got to use 329. I still plan on using him. I wouldnt hesitate if I were you Okotoks.  <beer>
 

Okotoks

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trevorgreycattleco said:
I have spoken with Mr Ragsdale several times. He speaks very highly of the bull. I was going to use him(A.I) until I got lucky and got to use 329. I still plan on using him. I wouldnt hesitate if I were you Okotoks.   <beer>
I don't think he is available in Canada. I was just curious how he was working for people as he looks like a useful bull! I see the new EPD's are out and he has got a bit more negative on calving ease but I'm not sure how a negative 1.9 relates to actual calving ease?
CE -1.9  BW 1.6  WW 17  YW 30  Milk 6  MW14  MCE -6.3
I know we have a bull with -2.4 and his calves all arrived unassisted this year.
I am pretty pleased with Diamond Prophecy 21P's new numbers though.
CE+7.0  BW-2.9    WW12    YW27  Milk6    MW 12    MCE 1.0
 

shorthorn 101

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After being at Agribition and saw the BIRDTAIL G GUS 15U calves I think he is a bull worth note of. They had style muscle and a hip on them as well. (thumbsup) (clapping)
 

vanridge

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shorthorn 101 said:
After being at Agribition and saw the BIRDTAIL G GUS 15U calves I think he is a bull worth note of. They had style muscle and a hip on them as well. (thumbsup) (clapping)

You should see the bull! He is a sweet lookin' thing. The first year my hubby and I went to the test station to look for a shorthorn bull he was our top pick. Needless to say we couldn't afford him. Than this spring we went to Uphill to look for a new bull and we recognized him right away as the one that got away!  He is quite a bull. And just to back up my praises of him I should mention I believe that he was the sire of Uphill Gussy 7X the high selling bull at the Douglas Test Station in 2011.  Gussy 7X  put up some really impressive numbers there, he was all white and was sold to a commercial black herd.
 

jaimiediamond

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I would love to see a picture of that bull and BIRDTAIL G GUS 1W 1W's daughter that Jack purchased in Agribition from Herbourne Shorthorns is a SWEET heifer, depth, width, length and feminity wrapped up in a stylish package (wish I had found her first). 
 

vanridge

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jaimiediamond said:
I would love to see a picture of that bull and BIRDTAIL G GUS 1W 1W's daughter that Jack purchased in Agribition from Herbourne Shorthorns is a SWEET heifer, depth, width, length and feminity wrapped up in a stylish package (wish I had found her first). 

I had a picture of him but I can't find it back  :'( However I looked through my Shorthorn Reports and there is a picture of him in Uphill Shorthorns ad.  Its in the Herd Reference 2011 edition.
 

sjcattleco

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Okotoks said:
Has anyone used this bull or seen calves by him? Sutherland Durango 813

          3807924 PM PHA-F TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER 57
   *x3989821 PHA-F TH-F NPS DURANGO 774 CBH ET
         *x3869997 PS PHA-F TH-F KA'BA ROSE T90
Sire: *x4039020 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND DURANGO 721 ET
         x3909543 PMSY PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN SUPER DAZZLER ET
   x3980542 TH-F WF CLASSY ISOBEL W26G
        x3957769 MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL34TH
SUTHERLAND DURANGO 813       
         x3902216 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET
   x3959923 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND BUNDABERG ET
        x3947586 PS PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL38TH ET
Dam: x4039398 PD SUTHERLAND MARGIE 714 ET
         3684142 TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER
   3967030 PHA-F TH-F AF SHANNON MARGIE 587 ET
         3702855 PS AF SHANNON MARGIE 924
CE -1.3   BW 1.6    WW18   YW30   MILK6   MW 14   MCE-5.9


That pedigree is packed with GIANT birth weight!!!!!! I tried it long ago!!!! one of the worst breeding decisions I ever made!  luckily it only took one calf crop and one trip to the stock yard to fix that problem!
 

Okotoks

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sjcattleco said:
Okotoks said:
Has anyone used this bull or seen calves by him? Sutherland Durango 813

          3807924 PM PHA-F TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER 57
   *x3989821 PHA-F TH-F NPS DURANGO 774 CBH ET
         *x3869997 PS PHA-F TH-F KA'BA ROSE T90
Sire: *x4039020 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND DURANGO 721 ET
         x3909543 PMSY PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN SUPER DAZZLER ET
   x3980542 TH-F WF CLASSY ISOBEL W26G
        x3957769 MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL34TH
SUTHERLAND DURANGO 813       
         x3902216 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET
   x3959923 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND BUNDABERG ET
        x3947586 PS PHA-F TH-F MARELLAN IRISH ISOBEL38TH ET
Dam: x4039398 PD SUTHERLAND MARGIE 714 ET
         3684142 TH-C DEERPARK IMPROVER
   3967030 PHA-F TH-F AF SHANNON MARGIE 587 ET
         3702855 PS AF SHANNON MARGIE 924
CE -1.3   BW 1.6    WW18   YW30   MILK6   MW 14   MCE-5.9


That pedigree is packed with GIANT birth weight!!!!!! I tried it long ago!!!! one of the worst breeding decisions I ever made!  luckily it only took one calf crop and one trip to the stock yard to fix that problem!
Was it this bull or some closely related to him? It seems some may have to find bloodlines to breed away from some of these calving ease issues.
From another thread http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=34767.15
The interesting thing about 4157514 is that over the 8 genererations since Dreamboat the BW EPD keeps dropping to where 4157514 is 0 BW EPD. Just shows with selection it is possible. A question, the Bonanza son *4162296 ,YY CARTWRIGHT 145X is sired by Bonanza, no asterisk and out of a Dover cow with no asterisk yet he has one?
He has nice calving ease #'s and BW on him  Calving ease +9.2 BW - 2.1
 
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