Whats the focus of your breeding program?

[aj]

Mark Thallman and two other research geneticists from MARC in Nebraska recommend the following."before a bull is promototed and semen is sold on him...he should be bred to 16 up to32 daughters to test for genetic problems". Is their a breeder in the US that thinks like this? Olhde....Beckton....? Kind of takes the fun out of the "Wham bam thank you madam crowd.

 

[Doc]

I'm going to have to go along with what oakview said on a lot of things. I've only been raising Shorties since 1972 , tho. Some of the older cow families mean a lot to me & are found in my  cows or eggs in the tank like : Scarlets, Margies, Irish Lassies , Missie Ruth, Robins, Augusta Pride, Bonnie Rachel, . I do have newer genetics like : Lucky Charm, Roan Sue, Nobodys Fool , Fool Pride & some others. I'm also in it to make money. I like what I like, & I'm going to raise what I think I can raise on my place, make money with , ENJOY looking at & working with & will not be ashamed to sell to anyone.
Trev,I geuss  you must have a lot more money than a lot of people I know that raise cattle, because they are all concerned about making money. I think you need to get to know someone before you make a response like you did to Shortdawg. I've known Shortdawg since I think since close to the beginning when he 1st started raising Shorties. You will have to look hard & far before you find a more honest & down to earth person than him & his family. He definitely treasures the time he spends with the kids & the cows & I'm definitely jealous of that because I have 3 dtrs & they couldn't care about the cows in the least. So I try to find other things to do with them.  But I think if Shortdawgs sons'  were more into playing golf than showing, then I think he would either be caddying for them or playing himself, just to be right there with them. There is nothing wrong with trying different genetics & types of cattle that will work in your program. So what if he buys some cows & sells some cows. Has if affected you in anyway?  I geuss I'm coming off my soapbaox now! ;D
If you want to see a breeding program that is stacked with their breeding for generations & will compete with any Shorthorn cattle in the US (show & commercial), then someone needs to go see Martindell Farms in KY. 

 

[ZNT]

Our herd's focus is on producing Maine and Maine X cattle that have moderate birth weights, great maternal traits along with fertility, and enough muscle and show appeal that can be competitive in the show ring. On top of that, we have selected cattle that can do all these things and still be genetic defect free.  I am proud to say that none our our cows are carriers, and we continue to select sires that meet our criteria and be defect free.

Though we tend to sell most of our cattle as show cattle and seed stock, we constantly keep in mind that the genetics we produce must be practical in the REAL commercial man's world, and the decisions of the seedstock producers definitely have an effect on the direction of the beef industry as a whole.  Seedstock producers have a responsibility to produce cattle that are good for the industry, not just good for winning purple ribbons and taking pretty pictures in magazines.l

 

[aj]

I keep hearing about the uterine torson deal. What the heck is this? Is it related to big birth weights or genetic or what?

 

[justintime]

I keep hearing about the uterine torson deal. What the heck is this? Is it related to big birth weights or genetic or what?

I have had one out a two year old 3 years ago, and I quizzed my vet about it. According to what he said, it is not genetic, and it is not necessarily birth weight related either. He said it can happen as simply as a heifer or cow rolling over to lick themselves, and the calf moves at the same time. Occasionally, this causes the uterus to flip over causing a torsion and there is no way for the calf to be born except by c-section. The vet says he sees a few each year, and he has seen them in virtually all breeds he works with. The one I had was a first calf heifer and she had a very small heifer calf. A neighbor with 300 Angus and Angus/ Simmental cows has had 3 in the last two years and he had never had one previous to this.

The causes are not real clear as to what exactly causes these to happen and they may even be caused by several different factors.

 

[shortdawg]

My problem is that the uterine torison happened on my best animal - probably one of the best I've ever owned. Of course it always happens to the good ones.

 

[KMJCC]

Our cattle operation goal is to raise good sound and functionaly cattle that will excel in the pasture as mommas as well in the show ring.  Pretty simple huh!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

The main goal of my opperation is to breed functionally oreintated shorthorn cattle and composits.  I also believe that in the shorthorn breed right now you have to sell some show cattle or show cattle mammas.  I think that I can make a animal that has the things that both commercial and show breeders want.  Besides a DEEP bodied good structured nice uddered heifer workes anywhere. 

 

[aj]

Thanks

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

O.k. first of all Doc I'm about as broke as a guy cann be and still be in business. The economy has really made it tough to stay afloat but so far i am doing it.
That comment was the first thing I read when I got up so sorry if i didn't get the joke. Chad, I know WAY more about your operation than you think, in fact I have been studying shorthorns in depth for 11 years now and their is not hardly a breeder I don't know about.I know enough to pass my own judgement thanks. I applaud you for including your kids. I think showing cattle can teach kids responsibility among other things and it is a good thing. I asked you about the AP because I already knew the answer, I just wanted to know what you would say. If u r using two Sonny sons then a JPJ son, I would call that using the "hot" bulls at the time. I guess we will agree to disagree. Keep it up with your kids I honestly applaud that. I hope my kids want to farm when they are old enough. I guess the million dollar question for me is if the AP didn't work for you why do you put her in a sale instead of shipping her? If she doesn't work why sell her to someone else who then wastes their time with a run of the mill cow with a good pedigree? I have shipped many "high dollar" cattle because they didn't do what I thought they should. Never did I think weell I need to put her in a sale and try to get some of my money back. I shipped her and cut my losses. I could never sell a cow to a fellow breeder if the cow did not perform like I think they should. I see this over and over in sale catalogs. Guess I just think a little different.

 

[justintime]

O.k. first of all Doc I'm about as broke as a guy cann be and still be in business. The economy has really made it tough to stay afloat but so far i am doing it.
That comment was the first thing I read when I got up so sorry if i didn't get the joke. Chad, I know WAY more about your operation than you think, in fact I have been studying shorthorns in depth for 11 years now and their is not hardly a breeder I don't know about.I know enough to pass my own judgement thanks. I applaud you for including your kids. I think showing cattle can teach kids responsibility among other things and it is a good thing. I asked you about the AP because I already knew the answer, I just wanted to know what you would say. If u r using two Sonny sons then a JPJ son, I would call that using the "hot" bulls at the time. I guess we will agree to disagree. Keep it up with your kids I honestly applaud that. I hope my kids want to farm when they are old enough. I guess the million dollar question for me is if the AP didn't work for you why do you put her in a sale instead of shipping her? If she doesn't work why sell her to someone else who then wastes their time with a run of the mill cow with a good pedigree? I have shipped many "high dollar" cattle because they didn't do what I thought they should. Never did I think weell I need to put her in a sale and try to get some of my money back. I shipped her and cut my losses. I could never sell a cow to a fellow breeder if the cow did not perform like I think they should. I see this over and over in sale catalogs. Guess I just think a little different.

Trevor, if you know as much as you say you do, you would have known that Chad is one of the most honest people in this business and you would never question his motives. Quite frankly, it is nobody's business but his, what he sells and where he sells it. He gave you a very honest answer when you asked him why he was selling this cow, and that was before the sale. I am certain if you had phoned him he would have given you a very honest answer in more detail, but you seemed to just draw your own conclusions. Also, if you look back at what he said, he did not say that this cow was producing poor calves, he just said she was not producing what he wanted to raise.He has a smaller herd, and he wanted to just move on and try another female in his herd. She may have been a perfect cow in someone's elses herd or maybe even yours. Why he sold this cow is none of my business, and it is not any of yours as well, and I have no idea why you would ever bring this up in a public forum like this. If you have personal questions ask them personally. I have never been to New River Farm, but I have met Chad on a couple of occasions, and I will say this, he is one of the warmest, most personable men you could ever meet, and his integrity and honesty are very easy to see in his personality if you talk with him for a few minutes

I know lots of people who will sell a cow in a sale, once they have a daughter or two to replace her. Some people truly believe that if their program is working at all, each generation should be better than the previous one. I don't always agree with this, but I do often sell a cow once I have offspring to replace her, and sometimes it is important to sell something from the very top end of your herd. The breeders who just sell their bottom end cattle usually have about three sales before the buyers have figured this out. The sales that remain good year after year, are the ones that know they have to dig deep to keep their quality high, and usually these are the same people who will also go out and buy from the top end from another sale. Of course some will say they are just " trading" cattle, and while I know this does go on, I do not think this happens as often as some people think.
I would also say that you are assuming even more about Chad's breeding program. It could just be that Chad has used two Sonny sons and a JPJ son because he felt they were the best bulls he had found to advance his herd. Maybe he is not using them just because they are the "hot" bulls at the time.... and just what exactly is wrong with using popular bloodlines. They obviously must work for quite a few people in order to be popular. I will agree that any breed needs breeders who breed some outcross genetics, but it is not essential for every breeder to do so. Take a look at any breed of cattle and you will see that the so called " hot" lines are used extensively in many of the best herds in the country. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using bulls from popular genetics of the day, if they are advancing your program.... and I would say that is for Chad to decide, and no one else. You are free to do the same thing in your herd, and I suspect you would be more than a little upset if some of us on SP started picking apart your herd and what you are trying to do.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

JIT pick apart my cows ALL you want. I can take it. I don't really mind someone tellin me what they think. Take the bad with the good. I am not trying to suggest he is crooked or even wrong. IT IS JUST MY OPINION! Take it or leave it. I have never claimed to be a know it all but I know enough. Maybe not as much as you JIT but I have not had the oppurtunities of a family farm all ready being here or a relative who could show me how to do anything. I just jumped in with both feet and learned to swim by  myself. We can argue bulls all day but neither will change the others mind so who cares. You r the master breeder and I am just the schmuck. You know it all. I'm sure "shortdawg" is a nice guy. I'm not saying he did anything wrong by selling that cow but I do remeber his ad saying she will be his future lead donor cow. (correct me if I am wrong) Just wanted to show that every "donor" cow don't always work out that way.

I guess using popular bloodlines to me is just being a follower not a leader. I don't want to use a bull because everyone else is?!!! What happened to JPJ anyway. I would use Capiche before JPJ anyway.  All I am trying to do with my herd is make the best cows I can on MINIMUM inputs. Pick that apart all you want. I use genetics that have been proven to survive on minimum inputs. Thats why my cows are all red and black angus from range country and all but ONE shorthorn cow has taken the ride to town. These were all daughters out of "hot bulls" at the time. (Trump this or Trump that) I tried them all. They are not horrible but they got outperformed pretty bad here at my place.

D

 

[farmboy]

you shorthorn guys...  : : :

 

[justintime]

JIT pick apart my cows ALL you want. I can take it. I don't really mind someone tellin me what they think. Take the bad with the good. I am not trying to suggest he is crooked or even wrong. IT IS JUST MY OPINION! Take it or leave it. I have never claimed to be a know it all but I know enough. Maybe not as much as you JIT but I have not had the oppurtunities of a family farm all ready being here or a relative who could show me how to do anything. I just jumped in with both feet and learned to swim by  myself. We can argue bulls all day but neither will change the others mind so who cares. You r the master breeder and I am just the schmuck. You know it all. I'm sure "shortdawg" is a nice guy. I'm not saying he did anything wrong by selling that cow but I do remeber his ad saying she will be his future lead donor cow. (correct me if I am wrong) Just wanted to show that every "donor" cow don't always work out that way.

I guess using popular bloodlines to me is just being a follower not a leader. I don't want to use a bull because everyone else is?!!! What happened to JPJ anyway. I would use Capiche before JPJ anyway.  All I am trying to do with my herd is make the best cows I can on MINIMUM inputs. Pick that apart all you want. I use genetics that have been proven to survive on minimum inputs. Thats why my cows are all red and black angus from range country and all but ONE shorthorn cow has taken the ride to town. These were all daughters out of "hot bulls" at the time. (Trump this or Trump that) I tried them all. They are not horrible but they got outperformed pretty bad here at my place.

D

Trevor, I owe you an apology if I took your post the wrong way, but the way I read it ( and still do) was that you were questioning his honesty for selling a cow that did not work for him in a sale to recoup some of his investment at someone else's expense. I am just saying that may or may not be why he consigned this cow to a sale. I am just saying none of us can draw any conclusions from the limited amount of information we have . I also applaud you for being smart enough to select the cows that work in your operation. That is not a trait that everyone possesses. I think Chad has the same ability to select what works for him.

It sounds like I run my cows closer to the way you do, than most breeders do. I now have the first set of two year old females calved out that have not been fed any grain in their lives, and they may be the best set I have had in a very long time. My entire farm is seeded to hay and pasture, so I have to buy any grain that is fed. I am not opposed to feeding grain, as it makes economic sense when grain prices are low, and oftentimes you can supplement poorer quality hay with a few pounds of grain cheaper than buying some  better quality hay. We just had a good supply of high quality hay the past few years, so we have raised our replacements on just good hay... and I think they are better for it. Believe it or not, some of these females that have been raised on just forages have some Trump in their pedigrees, and I would defy anyone to say that they are not easy fleshing. My point is that there are good and bad in any bloodline, so to me, it is wrong to paint them all with the same brush.

Believe me, I was not trying to argue with what you are doing, as it seems to be working for you, and I would be the first to support you on doing that. In closing I would just say that every breed needs true leaders, and every breed needs followers. It is what makes the world go round. I am just saying that because a person uses herd bulls from popular bloodlines of the day, can make them a leader, or it can make them a follower. It oftentimes depends on what they do with them after they get them. When Bob Gordon, purchased TPS Coronet Leader 21 from the 1962 American Polled Congress, he purchased a bull from one of the oldest lines in the breed. It was what Bob Gordon did with Leader 21 that made him a leader of his day. That is all I am saying.

 

[shortdawg]

Nobody asked me about my Shadra cow ? She was one of my top producing cows ever ! She had progeny of both sexes in production, flushed well, and flat proved her worth. I guess I dumped her on someone too, huh ? The fact of the matter is I told the guy interested in the AP female everyrthing I knew about her and he bought her. I don't think that is bad business at all. I always try to consign something up there every year that has some pedigree to it. She had a heifer calf at side for everyone to see and was bred to a Sonny/Jane Mary bull that I own and it was a sexed heifer calf. She would have brought nearly as much at the sale barn as she did up there.This is a public forum and I bought that cow from a breeder that I have a lot of respect for and I'm not going to say any more about this cow. This is not the place to do that and I've already had to address this deal with him because of Trev's post. I breed what I like, you breed what you like - I'll run my business and you run yours. OK ........! As I said if you have any other questions I've already posted my number !

 

[chambero]

I'm amazed that anyone could think they really know anything about anyone based on what they can glean from the internet.  There are neighbor ranches we work closely with on almost a daily basis that I wouldn't pretend to know as much about as what has been claimed regarding Shortdawg.  Regardless of anyone's opinions, this value of this site is headed downhill in a hurry if we continue to pronounce our intelligence by criticizing what someone else is doing like this.  There's a line that gets crossed way too often nowadays and everyone knows it.

But in keeping with the spirt of the "game", the fact that TrevorGreyCattleCo has enough time to remember and worry about what someone halfway across the country does with one cow lets me make a pretty educated good guess of how much a cattle business (and life) they really have and the subsequent value of their comments.  Shortdawg has built up plenty of credibility with a bunch of us over the years on this site.

 

[aj]

I think anyone who puts a purebred up for sale is subject to scrutiny. I guess it goes back to the age old question. Are you a cattle breeder or a cattle trader.....and what does that even mean?

 

[Doc]

I think anyone who puts a purebred up for sale is subject to scrutiny. I guess it goes back to the age old question. Are you a cattle breeder or a cattle trader.....and what does that even mean?

I think anytime you sell anything it's subject to scrutiny.  So are you saying because you sell a purebred animal that you are a trader? I geuss I'm a trader , because that's all I do. I trade purebred cattle for money all the time. ;D

 

[aj]

I geuss you're wright.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

chambero( whatever the hell that means), just because I know pretty much every breeder around does not mean I got no life. I had to laugh when I read that. I got a great life but since you brought it up I thought I would explain myself. When I started raising cows I knew nothing so I set out to research and study as much as I can. I can't help it if I remember everybody. Jeeze. I could talk about a ton of breeders but unfortunately "shortdawg"  got my attention this time. Anyone can call me as well to discuss this. Brock Eagon 740-815-4145. My whole deal is when a cow doesn't produce for you how can you honestly sell her to another breeder. I can't and I won't do that. I have lost alot of money because I gave good money for cows or bulls and they didn't work like I wanted so instead of passin the buck to someone else I culled them. I guess that I am holier than tho( according to Doc) for the way I run my herd or question someone else. I am tryin to be neither a smart ass or a goodie goodie. Just sharing my thoughts on a public forum.

Oh and chambero just because you never heard of me or talked to me before don't think I don't know what I am talkin about. I'm sure I could drop some names of some people that would tell you I am a nice guy, just demand alot from my cows and the other people who call themselves purebred breeders. You go ahead and keep tradin cattle, I will keep doing what I am doin. I have no hard feelings toward anyone. It's just words and opinions.

And shortdawg I'm not saying what you did is bad. It happens ALL the time. I can't blame you for wanting to get some money back. I just can't do that.