American Muscle Pic

[OH Breeder]

As a very little guy with 6 registered shorthorn cows, i buy semen by the straw. There are alot of folks like me that budget for 5 of this bull and 5 of that bull. We try them on the cow and if it clicks then i buy more. From the back of the crowd.....SELL IT BY THE STRAW!!!! ;D
As far as certs are concerned, I paid 15 to 25 for most of my certs. the certs only cost $5-10. I know you have to make a little something, but $50-$100 for certs starts to eat into my small budget. may be I am just tight?

 

[DL]

yea it got a little hairy there for a day or sooo.....but you will have that... (welcome).. you know that internal filter  most of us have can sometimes go from 200 microns to 200 inches when all you are looking at is a faceless flat screen.... and if you are just completely wrong then it makes it worse!!!!!  (lol)

here are a few more questions.. do most people buy 10 straws on a new bull or 3?? Shipping is the same....

What is a fair deal on certs? I have to make sure that the larger buyers if there is any more  do get a better deal... If a shareholder gets certs priced at 10 to 15 dollars is it unreasonable to ask say $40 for a cert from a person that just bought 5 straws? is $40 or $50 too much if the calf is good enough to keep and register?

WOW chambero - from the stories you tell it is a different world down there.  ;D ;D ;D

SJ - here are my thoughts- you have a bull with a lot of potential - what you need to really "sell him" is lots of people using him and having calves - Friends promoting bulls have given away a lot of semen for free jsut to get it out there - I am not suggesting you give me semen, but  I don't think twice about $15 or $20 semen -  I do about $25. I don't know about others buying habits but once a year I place an order with SEK - if they carry it I would be more inclined to buy it. They also deliver to various Expos and will sell individual straws.

I would give the shareholders the certs for free - otherwise why buy a share? My cattle are Maines (some dual registered with the ASA) and we have only a few certs and they are high $80 and above - and I personally (for our breed) find it annoying and greedy. I recognize many other breeds have certs - don't price yourself out of the market - if you want people to use the bull and register calves - make it affordable - I am with OH B on this one - if it costs me $25 a straw, $100 for a cert, $27 x 2 for TH and PHA testing I have spent almost $200 before I even fed the bugger! JMO

 

[red]

Scott- I have a contract for a semen agreement that we were involved in once. If you'd like, I can fax it to you.
Basicaly it offered shares. The shares allowed the buyers to get either 30 units or upwards for two years. After that the semen was released to the pulic & there was supposed to be a % of sales paid back.
It's probably not what you want but there may be some key wordings.

Red

 

[sjcattleco]

Sorry no fax.. we need to get one... when our printer dies we plan to get one fo those deals that scans, prints, copies,  faxes and feeds the dog... I would like to read it if you can email it that would be good!!!

 

[cowz]

Your semen collection facility manager may also have some sample contracts on hand.  Just a thought.

 

[sjcattleco]

There is not going to be any ownership changes or anything like that.... and I don't really think someone will offer enough to buy half semen interest when they can get the semen cheap enough!!!  The share deal is just an incentive package to take a small risk and recieve a few more benefits for the investment....

 

[garybob]

That is exactly my point. This iswhat we need to have in all our programs. Spending too much time showing, without tying the experience to a real SAE (record book) production enterprise, is just the same as Sports, in my opinion. Seems that you guys have a real, balanced program in your community. One that you can be proud of.

Ooh, this one did get unexpectedly testy!  I hadn't followed this one in a while.

I really don't know much about shorthorns, but most people trying to raise show cattle that haven't owned many bulls really don't know what a real bull is supposed to look like.  I know what our herd bulls look like and the results we get out of their calves.  AM looks to me like a good stout Shorthorn bull worth trying.

There is a lot of science to our business - and a lot of guesswork too.  I've had legitimate steer jocks who are good people and sell lots of good calves leave calves in our pasture that went on to win breed championships at Texas majors.  I had another guy (who didn't know so much) tell me how sorry the sire of one of those calves was (one of our herd bulls) during a visit at the end of winter.  I don't think he'd seen a bull on native pasture at the end of a season he'd bred 50 cows.  In my opinion you have to find good people you trust and trust their recommendations to a large extent. 

Ag teachers anywhere in this country are a really hard working bunch for the most part.  In Texas (probably everywhere else also) they are a very tight knit group.  To a large extent, you aren't going to sell many showcalves without having connections with them.  Unfortunately, many (not all) expect a cut if they send their students to you for animals.  There is a lot of resentment from folks who have been on both ends of those deals.  A few teachers have lost jobs who've tried that stunt on the wrong people.  A lot of them do work a lot of extra hours for low pay and I can see where they need ways to augment their income especially if they are going "above and beyond".  Plenty of them don't know two cents about breeding cattle though.  Plenty wouldn't know a good steer if you gave it to them.  There are lots of really good ones that can pass on a lot of practical knowledge also. 

Our local ag program may not be as good as many when it comes to showing, but they turn out a bunch of kids that can darn sure judge pastures and hay - which is pretty useful in the long run.  I wish my teacher had taught me that kind of stuff. 

 

[OH Breeder]

There is not going to be any ownership changes or anything like that.... and I don't really think someone will offer enough to buy half semen interest when they can get the semen cheap enough!!!   The share deal is just an incentive package to take a small risk and recieve a few more benefits for the investment....

If you can't scan Cathy, fax to me and I will scan into a PDF file for Scott. Just let me know if you need help.

 

[Doc]

I agree with OH B . I buy my semen 3 - 5 straws on each bull. Something you may want to try is say is $20/straw until like Nov.'08 then it goes to $35/straw. That way people have used him & have some calves about weaning age & will know if they want to use him any anymore or not. On the AI cert. fee I charge $10-15 per each one , they only cost $5each & it's not like the old days where you bought the paper ones , they mailed them to you & then you had to mail them to the person needing it.You make 1 call to ASA & thats it.  I think you will shoot yourself out of the saddle charging a bunch for the cert. Just my 2 cents & I won't even send you a bill. (clapping)

 

[red]

Thanks, I can scan it no problem, just want to some white-outing in a couple of places. It's not my contract but one we had w/ someone else.

Red

 

[Jill]

I agree with OH B . I buy my semen 3 - 5 straws on each bull. Something you may want to try is say is $20/straw until like Nov.'08 then it goes to $35/straw. That way people have used him & have some calves about weaning age & will know if they want to use him any anymore or not. On the AI cert. fee I charge $10-15 per each one , they only cost $5each & it's not like the old days where you bought the paper ones , they mailed them to you & then you had to mail them to the person needing it.You make 1 call to ASA & thats it.  I think you will shoot yourself out of the saddle charging a bunch for the cert. Just my 2 cents & I won't even send you a bill. (clapping)

I don't deal with the certificate thing alot, but I absolutely hate it!  On the Maine side, I would not use a bull that requires a certificate.  I would just as soon they double the price to register the calf as have to make a bunch of calls to get a cert. that really isn't a cert, and I have never paid less than $25 it all seems very petty to me.  I only do a couple a year, but it is a couple too many for my taste.  Is there some reason they feel the need for certificates? 

 

[red]

Jill, I'm bad on the Maines. if I use a bull that has a cert, like Iceman. I use him on a lower % cow so then don't have to buy the certs.
I never realized all the Shorthorn bulls required one! That does add up! Who gets it? the breeder or the Assoc?

Red

 

[DL]

Jill, I'm bad on the Maines. if I use a bull that has a cert, like Iceman. I use him on a lower % cow so then don't have to buy the certs.
I never realized all the Shorthorn bulls required one! That does add up! Who gets it? the breeder or the Assoc?

Red

Breeder, you call him or her, they "release" the certificate to the association so you can register the animal and you send the check to the owner. 

 

[justme]

I hate certificates....it just weans out a lot of calves getting registered and makes for false EPD's in my opinion.  Years ago I bought some Ceasar semen and bred my heifers to him, AFTER I bred my heifers it came out they were asking for Certs. on him.  I was so mad, and never bought his semen again.  Which was a shame because we had great calves out of him, most that had to go commercial because I refused to pay the fee.

 

[sjcattleco]

Certs are a requirement in the ASA... I look at certs like this... If the calf is good enough to register then the cert is cheap.....

 

[red]

Scott- how much do they vary in cost? The Maines can go up to $1000 for Hotline. Calf had just better be real good for that!

Red

 

[justme]

its a shame though.  If its a decent heifer, not a show heifer, I'll not paper her and you'll never get the true epd's on the offspring.  I guess I'm just cheap.  If you have to have a certificate make them cheap and let the average 20-30 cow guy have a chance at your bull

 

[knabe]

nice pic of a shorthorn bull on browarny's website

wait for the pics to reload, it's around 6 or 7.  nice pic of a pair of fullblood chianina's pulling a cart too.

 

[Doc]

Red, With Shorthorns the cost of the cert. to the owner of the bull is $5.00. The breeder will charge from cost to $35or 40. Majority are in the $10 to 20 range.

 

[Jill]

Certs are a requirement in the ASA... I look at certs like this... If the calf is good enough to register then the cert is cheap.....

If the calf is good enough to register, it's another $25.00 out of my pocket for no additional service.
I went with the whole herd registry thinking that would be the way to go $15.00 dollars a year seemed like a really good deal and I would be able to register 1 calf per cow.  I had a calf the was just a calf, but we were keeping her as a cow so I decided to register her since it was free (mother was in whole herd) if took $27.00 for the TH test, $25.00 for the certificate, and after that they sent me a bill for $20.00 to add her to the herdbook because now she has been bred up to purebred status on top of the $15.00 dollars I already paid to register the calf for free.  That calf cost me $87.00 in charges $72.00 of which I received no service for, I have now been nickel and dimed to death and this year we will be breeding her Maine where I can register the calf for $20.00 with no hidden fees.