Shorty hf bulls

[Okotoks]

Angus- Spur Emulous Master. I know where there are over 200 registered, line-bred descendents, near the Osage River , in southern Carroll County, Arkansas.

Shorthorn-So many to pick from, among those already mentioned. My hands-down, or "hands Off" pick, because, i never touched a calf during birth, would be Oaklawn Dreamworks*. Yes, he was horned, and, yes, he carried an asterisk in his ASA number. Yes, he was sired by a son of Tarheel Drive and a Hoyt cow. He was still the most dependable sire I ever used. people didn't like him, in 1999,because he wasn't a 7.3 frame score.

GB

That's kind of what I was trying to say in my last post. Oaklawn Dreamworks bred well for you for calving ease and birth weight in spite of what people might have assumed from his pedigree!

 

[Doc]

Angus- Spur Emulous Master. I know where there are over 200 registered, line-bred descendents, near the Osage River , in southern Carroll County, Arkansas.

Shorthorn-So many to pick from, among those already mentioned. My hands-down, or "hands Off" pick, because, i never touched a calf during birth, would be Oaklawn Dreamworks*. Yes, he was horned, and, yes, he carried an asterisk in his ASA number. Yes, he was sired by a son of Tarheel Drive and a Hoyt cow. He was still the most dependable sire I ever used. people didn't like him, in 1999,because he wasn't a 7.3 frame score.

GB

Well GB, I hate to break it to you but you must be mistaken. According to a lot of people on here with Rodeo Drive & GR Combo in his pedigree you would have had to cut all his calves out. 

 

[Okotoks]

A short cut to the photo gallery starting on page 39. (cow)

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=21104.570
<nopics>

 

[thunderdownunder]

It seems once again everyone is getting caught up in the birthweight discussion.

I am a FIRM believer that one of the greatest contributors to calving ease is the calf's shape. I've seen and had experience with a number of bulls that have large birthweight EBVs or actual birthweights - yet their calves slip out easier than the "low birthweight" heifer bulls.

Again, everyone gets so caught up in numbers rather than actual phenotype.

 

[Aussie]

It seems once again everyone is getting caught up in the birthweight discussion.

I am a FIRM believer that one of the greatest contributors to calving ease is the calf's shape. I've seen and had experience with a number of bulls that have large birthweight EBVs or actual birthweights - yet their calves slip out easier than the "low birthweight" heifer bulls.

Again, everyone gets so caught up in numbers rather than actual phenotype.

Yes you are so right  (thumbsup) Like you said on page 46 and I said on page 7  I am afraid we are <deadhorse>

Aussies unite and take on the world

 

[thunderdownunder]

Aussies unite and take on the world

(clapping) (clapping) <beer>

 

[justintime]

Aussies unite and take on the world

(clapping) (clapping) <beer>

Will you allow a Canuck in your Aussie group at least on this issue? I have been saying for years that we need to be put more emphasis on calving ease rather than just birth weight. It is not just the big calves that require assistance at birth. I also think that you cannot just roll all sires from a bloodline into one catagory. I have said this before, but I am certain many people would not believe me, but I have had two Rodeo Drive sons that were amazing easy calving sires. GR Rodeo 4000 was used here on heifers with great calving ease. His son Shadybrook Optimum 35F is still one of my all time favorite heifer bulls. He is one of the most underrated bulls in the breed. Not only does he calve easily but his calves are good. I have never had an Optimum sired calf that was not sold for breeding purposes.. in either sex.

 

[vanridge]

Tell me if I'm crazy but I've heard it said that if you use heifer bulls all the time that eventually your replacement heifers are going to be too narrow in the rump to be able to deliver anytbing unless it's really small. Is this true? We always try look for a bull that is recommended for cows/heifers to use on our 1st and 2nd calvers. We calve in February, if calves are to small or have no fat covering they quickly become little popsicles. Wouldn't it be better to keep heifers from cows with good rumps and breeding them to a good bull?

 

[jaimiediamond]

Tell me if I'm crazy but I've heard it said that if you use heifer bulls all the time that eventually your replacement heifers are going to be too narrow in the rump to be able to deliver anytbing unless it's really small. Is this true? We always try look for a bull that is recommended for cows/heifers to use on our 1st and 2nd calvers. We calve in February, if calves are to small or have no fat covering they quickly become little popsicles. Wouldn't it be better to keep heifers from cows with good rumps and breeding them to a good bull?

I firmly believe that pelvic measurements should become more important when selecting animals that would help with multi-trait selection Calving ease that doesn't fall short on Maternal Calving Ease.  I 100% agree with Thunderdownunder, Aussie, and JIT regarding the shape of the calf.  Weight comes from length  so a smooth well shaped calf with a long body might weigh 100 + lbs but it was born without assistance and was found up and nursing whereas a short boxy calf may have needed assistance due to its shape but only weighed 80lbs. 

I called a commercial breeder from our area yesterday and asked him what he looked for when selecting bulls.  I was informed that BW was a number that was used as a tie breaker he selected bulls on structure first, then the dams phenotype, and finally he would look at a BW number.  He said he wasn't interested in pedigree. This gentleman  is 50+ and is running 80 yearlings, and 400 + cows that are base Saler with a lot of Angus.  The bulls he is using this year are Angus and he purchased some Maine x Angus bulls as well (everything is black).  I will add that he has deep bodied soggy made females that have to to work or head to McDonalds as this is his only income. 

Aussie and Thunderdownunder what are the typical conditions cattle in your area have to survive in? What are their sizes? Do you supplement them? I have found it interesting that a selling feature is "no corn" I don't believe I know any purebred breeders in my area that go out and grain the whole cow herd, and herd bull but it keeps getting mentioned what are your thoughts and feelings regarding size and easy fleshing ability?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Can somebody show me some pics of heifers that can have a 100 lb + calf? I have never seen one that can. I have never said bw is the holy grail of epd's. In shorthorns it must be addressed. Its the elephant in the room that everybody sees yet doesnt think its a problem. I agree  there are exceptions to the rule with any bull but why try and breed for the off chance one could be a outlier? I havent used my calf puller in 3 years. its got cobwebs and its rusty. I dont mind that a bit. If you breed long enough for any one trait, you will be in trouble.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Can somebody show me some pics of heifers that can have a 100 lb + calf? I have never seen one that can. I have never said bw is the holy grail of epd's. In shorthorns it must be addressed. Its the elephant in the room that everybody sees yet doesnt think its a problem. I agree  there are exceptions to the rule with any bull but why try and breed for the off chance one could be a outlier? I havent used my calf puller in 3 years. its got cobwebs and its rusty. I dont mind that a bit. If you breed long enough for any one trait, you will be in trouble.

I was using the numbers as an example and had never specified if I was thinking heifers or cows it was a general comment.  Basically I am agreeing with TDU, Aussie, and JIT that structure is another major thing we should consider when selecting any bull.  My solution was that maybe we should ask for pelvic measurements when we are purchasing bulls/females this would help with calving ease that doesn't fall short on maternal calving ease. I generally want a live calf that can do it all.  If its a heifer I want her to mature and calve without problems, and if its a male I want him to grow so my customers (feedlot or another cattle producer) are happy

 

[wyatt]

<------ that heifer had a 110 lbs calf for her first one

 

[garybob]

Angus- Spur Emulous Master. I know where there are over 200 registered, line-bred descendents, near the Osage River , in southern Carroll County, Arkansas.

Shorthorn-So many to pick from, among those already mentioned. My hands-down, or "hands Off" pick, because, i never touched a calf during birth, would be Oaklawn Dreamworks*. Yes, he was horned, and, yes, he carried an asterisk in his ASA number. Yes, he was sired by a son of Tarheel Drive and a Hoyt cow. He was still the most dependable sire I ever used. people didn't like him, in 1999,because he wasn't a 7.3 frame score.

GB

Well GB, I hate to break it to you but you must be mistaken. According to a lot of people on here with Rodeo Drive & GR Combo in his pedigree you would have had to cut all his calves out. 

Some good, ol' Russell Sloan breeding through the Clara cow family did the job on the calving ease, and milk, and the other famous sires in the pedigree added the muscle and growth.

GB

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

<------ that heifer had a 110 lbs calf for her first one

Holy moly. See, I learn something everyday. Born unassisted?  I would say thats pretty lucky IMO. Im glad it worked out for you.

 

[sue]

Are there any calf photos of CO offspring or did I miss them earlier? I have dial up and dont get to see half the photos on here.

Frostback - A few pics of CO babies and many out of son's of CO on this fb link
anyone by sending them this public link:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.150623494993645.39448.100001379851206&l=dbecf33afb

Or go to our Lakeside shorthorns page- two CO babies  sonnyxco and trumpxco. 

 

[sue]

Thanks TGCC,I was hoping that was the case since we agree on way to much.In fact we had a good visit this afternoon and my post actually reinforces  the general theme of her post.Thank's for the call Sue.One on One communication still ''Trump's''[If I may use that name loosely] the written word.

Gary
Here is what I saw yesterday in western michigan. Sorry no pics, rain rain and more rain. However since you probably saw this bull's dam at A&T too . Thought  I would share this - A&T Power Ranger 4146433  was purchased by Robert and Amanda Shoup .
I have watched this group for 10 years and this is probably now one of my favorite herds . period. Robert seeks the form to function type of shorthorn females that can produced bulls that create the same in a commerical setting.  Close attention to udders, mature cow size, calving ease and flesh.  You can find Durham Reds in the herd as well and the lead off bull for that program is Red Hill Lancer ( TN RA breeder, low input and carcass ). A must see operation.
  Definately another CE bull for this thread- second calf crop - but sure about semen availability .... but currently my favorite pb shorthorn calf for 2011 is  a son of PR. I realize its early but what a chunk.

 

[Aussie]

Can somebody show me some pics of heifers that can have a 100 lb + calf? I have never seen one that can. I have never said bw is the holy grail of epd's. In shorthorns it must be addressed. Its the elephant in the room that everybody sees yet doesnt think its a problem. I agree  there are exceptions to the rule with any bull but why try and breed for the off chance one could be a outlier? I havent used my calf puller in 3 years. its got cobwebs and its rusty. I dont mind that a bit. If you breed long enough for any one trait, you will be in trouble.

Sorry to bring Angus into the shorthorn thread but to answer the question. I had a heifer this year that had a 50kg calf unassisted but she was a big heifer. The calf was by WAR Alliance http://www.universalsemensales.com/detail_angus.php?angus_id=189 who I have found a good example of shape over size. His calves are born big but easy and really grow. To answer Jaimie's question I live in a different enviroment to TDU. My cows live on grass (rye/clover) 24/7 in the winter which is wet and mild 0 to 12 degrees C we feed hay supplement. That's it. IMO calving heifers has a alot to do with management and nutrition.

 

[wyatt]

<------ that heifer had a 110 lbs calf for her first one

Holy moly. See, I learn something everyday. Born unassisted?  I would say thats pretty lucky IMO. Im glad it worked out for you.

im not gonna lie we had to help her to get it out mostly because its right foot was twisted back and it wouldn't come out we straightened it out and she got it out and it hip locked so we had to pull it the rest of the way calf was very long bodied

 

[nate53]

[/quote]
Sorry to bring Angus into the shorthorn thread but to answer the question. I had a heifer this year that had a 50kg calf unassisted but she was a big heifer. The calf was by WAR Alliance http://www.universalsemensales.com/detail_angus.php?angus_id=189 who I have found a good example of shape over size. His calves are born big but easy and really grow. To answer Jaimie's question I live in a different enviroment to TDU. My cows live on grass (rye/clover) 24/7 in the winter which is wet and mild 0 to 12 degrees C we feed hay supplement. That's it. IMO calving heifers has a alot to do with management and nutrition.
[/quote]

In the angus I look a lot at the CED and CEM #'s,  War Alliance is just above average for CED and exceptional for CEM plus he's carrying a lot of growth!  So he's not the most calving ease bull (average) but his daughters should calve easily which is the way to have it.  That is one thing I have noticed with a lot of the Calving ease shorthorns, the bulls have low birthweight epd.s and good direct calving ease but the CEM goes the other way on most of them which is not good.  I would want good CED and good CEM (maternal calving ease).  So either the #'s aren't accurate or?

 

[sue]

Sorry to bring Angus into the shorthorn thread but to answer the question. I had a heifer this year that had a 50kg calf unassisted but she was a big heifer. The calf was by WAR Alliance http://www.universalsemensales.com/detail_angus.php?angus_id=189 who I have found a good example of shape over size. His calves are born big but easy and really grow. To answer Jaimie's question I live in a different enviroment to TDU. My cows live on grass (rye/clover) 24/7 in the winter which is wet and mild 0 to 12 degrees C we feed hay supplement. That's it. IMO calving heifers has a alot to do with management and nutrition.
[/quote]

In the angus I look a lot at the CED and CEM #'s,  War Alliance is just above average for CED and exceptional for CEM plus he's carrying a lot of growth!  So he's not the most calving ease bull (average) but his daughters should calve easily which is the way to have it.  That is one thing I have noticed with a lot of the Calving ease shorthorns, the bulls have low birthweight epd.s and good direct calving ease but the CEM goes the other way on most of them which is not good.  I would want good CED and good CEM (maternal calving ease).  So either the #'s aren't accurate or?
[/quote]
Nate
It's difficult when a bull like #4099887 gets thrown into the mix.... kinda goes back to my original post in regards to generations of selection and stacking pedigrees for beef type shorthorns . Unfortunatley this is the current headache in shorthorn today.