Shorty hf bulls

[thunderdownunder]

Can somebody show me some pics of heifers that can have a 100 lb + calf? I have never seen one that can. I have never said bw is the holy grail of epd's. In shorthorns it must be addressed. Its the elephant in the room that everybody sees yet doesnt think its a problem. I agree  there are exceptions to the rule with any bull but why try and breed for the off chance one could be a outlier? I havent used my calf puller in 3 years. its got cobwebs and its rusty. I dont mind that a bit. If you breed long enough for any one trait, you will be in trouble.

Here's one of my cows/heifers that can spit them out. I'm all for small calves but this girl has proved to me she's worth keeping - she has never had a problem.
First picture is of her as a heifer. Her first calf was over 50kg. Second pic is of her in March this year. The calf at foot (by a Charolais bull) was nearly 70kg.
I know that the size of the calves comes from her side of the pedigree, not the sire of the calves. Although this calf was by a Charolais, her first calf was by a 'heifer bull'.
She goes back to HS Rodeo Drive FYI

ETA- Jaimie, I'll answer your questions later!

 

[frostback]

Can somebody show me some pics of heifers that can have a 100 lb + calf? I have never seen one that can.

Does that question mean they were unassisted or just 100lb+ ? I checked my records and have had them, no photos of them though. Had 3 full sisters bred to a calving ease Simmi have 113, 114, 95. Two were assisted by a pull. Had many more too. None never re-bred.
I bought a angus heifer bred to Northern Improvment calve. She had it at the far end of the run at dusk so I wanted the new pair in the shed. I bent over grabbed the little guy and threw my back out when I tried to lift. I went and got the sled and got him to the shed. I taped him and he was 105. Never would have guessed it by looking at him laying there, and by all the reports of calving ease by that bull. After he got up it made more sense. He was tall and long.

 

[rarebirdz]

maternalcalving ease is equally important as general calving ease.  I cant afford to  help heifers who don't have a live calf by themselves its 50/50 on whos fault it is when problems happen. On another note TGC wasn't the durham red complete 90lbs out of a heifer less then 2 I dont remember where I saw that so I could be wrong.  If I am right she has a pelvis worth talking about

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Yep rarebirdz you are right. She did calve very early and he was 90 lbs. That was a fiasco tho. She showed up at my place in june to be bred and she was calving by Sept Whoops. She got bred at the farm before me. Honest mistake.

Thanks for sharing your stories. I agree with MCE being more important than CE direct. I still dont want anything to do with a calf that big. I dont want to raise 1940's cattle either.  Im figuring out real quick, my cattle wont work in Canada or Europe. 

 

[sue]

maternalcalving ease is equally important as general calving ease.  I cant afford to  help heifers who don't have a live calf by themselves its 50/50 on whos fault it is when problems happen. On another note TGC wasn't the durham red complete 90lbs out of a heifer less then 2 I dont remember where I saw that so I could be wrong.  If I am right she has a pelvis worth talking about

So where do you stop, why stop at 100 lbs. Why dont we breed for heifers that can calve 140 lb calves? Oh wait... we tried that in the 80's and19 90s. Just so everyone is clear - complete is not being campaigned as a heifer bull.

I can agree with mce- again total herd reporting would help this more. However if you look at females like captain's dam, sneed herd, waukauru herds - they have done both moderated birth weights, frames and have a mce worth talking about.
 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Waukaru and Sneeds were mentioned and I would like to point out that they both consistently record data I would think that they are possibly a couple of the most predictable registered American Shorthorn herds.  

I think that due to the last 10 years being hard for the Canadian Shorthorn producers you would find that MCE and CE are highly important as up until recently it was hard to break even without a live calf that grew. You will notice that most Canadian herds have depth, easy fleshing ability, and soundness (by soundness I mean udders and structure)  there has been no tolerance for females hard to calve moreover the cattle had to maintain condition without supplementation.  This has all helped make Canadian Shorthorns a real commercial option for our bull buyers.  We don't just talk about it we as a group of breeders are working on the same page allowing for some real breed development.  

I might add that the average Shorthorn breeders in Canada are over 50 and are maintaining and calving their cattle out with little to no assistance which goes to show the MCE and CE are something that is always being considered and acted on.

 

[sue]

Unfortunately a breeder from the USA dominants the market in shorthorn semen sales- Ohlde as in Jake's Proud Jazz. Logical thinker and global icon.  What can we learn from  Jake Ohlde... ???

Where does this put a heifer that can have a 100 lb calf program?- "Hi, I am from  a shorthorn breeder from canada and we have selected for the past 10 yrs for a female that can have a 100 lb baby without assistance??
Will  u buy my bull or consign semen on my bull? "  His mom , grandma and grandpa weighed 100 ++ lbs.

I dont think that's what most in canada signed up for Jamie - are u sure this is where you want to head?  I know for a fact that some shorthorn breeders in Canada want commerical acceptance and know what it takes. 
Seriously I have song some praise to diamond genetics- ask Larry and brian. .. . ask any one . Do  a herd visit or two- stop bashing me and my bull(s). I promote shorthorns ... period.  Have a good day - 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Unfortunately a breeder from the USA dominants the market in shorthorn semen sales- Ohlde as in Jake's Proud Jazz. Logical thinker and global icon.   What can we learn from  Jake Ohlde... ???

Where does this put a heifer that can have a 100 lb calf program?- "Hi, I am from  a shorthorn breeder from canada and we have selected for the past 10 yrs for a female that can have a 100 lb baby without assistance??
Will  u buy my bull or consign semen on my bull? "  His mom , grandma and grandpa weighed 100 ++ lbs.

I dont think that's what most in canada signed up for Jamie - are u sure this is where you want to head?  I know for a fact that some shorthorn breeders in Canada want commerical acceptance and know what it takes. 
Seriously I have song some praise to diamond genetics- ask Larry and brian. .. . ask any one . Do  a herd visit or two- stop bashing me and my bull(s). I promote shorthorns ... period.  Have a good day - 

Bash your cattle? Funnily enough I have always positively talked about 329 on every calving ease thread and I only said one thing about Captain Obvious that offended only you and it wasn't negative. I think Sue you are over reacting and too defensive "me thinks you protest too much". 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Captain Obvious is a proven heifer bull yet his pedigree suggests he wouldn't be.  His calves have proven him to be one. I have never said anything that stated otherwise.  Regardless his grand sire has -9.6 CE his sire has -3.8. I attached his as well to show he is positive 3.6. I know which bull you were referring to but I know he is also proving himself to be a calving ease sire even if his pedigree suggests he wouldn't be. I could attach his information as well but honestly Sue the only person that was bashing was you and it isn't like there are things in your bull's pedigree you wouldn't be happy to have brought up....

 

[rarebirdz]

Sue I bashed your bull as I don't see him as comercial answer his structur isn't what most of us need. Jd posted a pic that made me eat crow so not sure y Ur attackingher ?

 

[nate53]

Are the #'s correct for Calving ease and maternal calving ease?  Jamie posted a prime example, between Captain Obvious and his Grand sire there is a huge spread in #'s for calving ease and maternal calving,  and yet the actuals are from 90 - 85 lbs. for birth (captain was the 85 and probally would be closer to 90 out of a cow, so basically no difference in weights?  The breeders are in the same general part of the states, all spring calves, so believing the #'s on CE and MCE is kind of hard for me.  I'm not saying the bulls aren't calving ease, I'm just saying there is a huge inconsistencey in the #'s for the epd's.  Not trying to be critical of the captain breeding, I'm using him and like him, (he's just the example being used).  I guess I'm being critical of the shorthorn breed and inconstistency in the #'s that are provided as a representation of an animal.  Commercial breeder's opinoin, we like good #'s and good cattle.

 

[rarebirdz]

Are the #'s correct for Calving ease and maternal calving ease?  Jamie posted a prime example, between Captain Obvious and his Grand sire there is a huge spread in #'s for calving ease and maternal calving,  and yet the actuals are from 90 - 85 lbs. for birth (captain was the 85 and probally would be closer to 90 out of a cow, so basically no difference in weights?  The breeders are in the same general part of the states, all spring calves, so believing the #'s on CE and MCE is kind of hard for me.  I'm not saying the bulls aren't calving ease, I'm just saying there is a huge inconsistencey in the #'s for the epd's.  Not trying to be critical of the captain breeding, I'm using him and like him, (he's just the example being used).  I guess I'm being critical of the shorthorn breed and inconstistency in the #'s that are provided as a representation of an animal.  Commercial breeder's opinoin, we like good #'s and good cattle.

I had the same thought

 

[Jacob B]

Just reading some of the recent posts, and this may be a litle off target....But, as sue mentioned before, if any of you get a chance to go spend a little time with robert shoup and learn a little bit about his operation, it will be well worth your time.  That guy is down right hard on cows.  They HAVE to earn there keep or he won't put up with them.  They are some of the better commmercial groups around in my findings.  I realy think robert has dedicated a lot of time focusing on making his cow herd a working operation.  If I was ever in the need for that kind of bull, he would be the first place I would stop.  I often see people out there that will try to sell you cattle on the "commercial low imput" gimick, when they are actualy feeding the heck out of their cows to make them look good and telling you they are low imput.  This guy has just too much integrity to do that.  A real honest, real cattleman that doesn't get enough recognition for what he does.

Trevorgray,
I did have one of those heifers that had a + 100 lber without any help at 22 months.  she was actualy just a female with a huge pelvis...she did produce the champion female at the MI winter show not too many years ago...she is no longer with me because she wasn't the best footed individual, I have no time for that.

sorry to interupt, you kids can get back to your bickering now.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

If you read the cattlevisions catalog. Lance cleary states about Captain " he is also extra sound and good footed with tremendous eye appeal." Now lets be honest here. Lance doesnt need to put a bull he doesnt believe in, in his company. i know he saw the bull personally and his progeny. If he was unsound or foundered, do you think he would have him as his number one shorthorn bull ahead of JPJ? No way. I didnt know a soul when I got into this breed. sue was and will always be one of the best people I have ever met in any walk of life. its hard to interperet what someone really is trying to say on a web chat. I have never met anyone who is more passionate and believing in shorthorns as her. If CO didnt work, she would get rid of him. Its simple. We bought a bull together awhile back. After awhile at my place, i told her the bull just didnt do it for me. She never blinked and we shipped him. Its not about politics or popularity with her. If your cattle work and can do something, chances are, she will find you.

for what its worth. I read the shorthorn epd's about as much as I read the National Enquierer. I dont believe them and it will take some time before I ever pay attention to them.
Well Jacob B another example of it being possible to calve a 100 + lb calf out of a heifer. Thanks for the input.

 

[JTM]

Can I get a heifer that has a correctly shaped 75 lb calf but would be able to have a 100 lb calf if she needed to? Also, I would like her to not be huge but grow really quickly to about 1200-1300 lbs and stop... Oh yeah, they need to have some fancy to them and all other traits being structurally correct. Who is out there that is breeding Shorthorns like this?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Jamie, honestly. You are how old? How may people do you talk to a day about bulls and cattle? How many heard visits do you make each year?  Your in my boat. We are not old enough to know enough. We have opinions sure. Fact is...........sue could be the most important person in the breed right now. Nobody networks like her and gets out and sees the cattle like she does. PERIOD. If this breed is to grow, it will need people like sue, r.n. reed. a@t, sneeds, Robert Shoup, JTM, Meadowlane,  etc, etc. Breed what you like and find the market where they fit.  Its our right and I hope we all make money. How many folks raise cattle in the USA anyways? Half of one percent is my guess or less. I personally like a heated discussion. It means we are getting somewhere. If folks think shorthorn folks argue, you need to do some research on angus. Keeneys Corner or 5barx chat forums will show you.

Gary Bob, I cant stop thinking about a certain bull in Ohio running with some Fancher cattle to produce some pretty sweet mongrels. Not to mention a golf day in Arkansas! aussie, bring your clubs! You can use mine if you dont have any. Rental fee is a beer.

 

[thunderdownunder]

TGCC, you asked to be shown pics of a heifer that could have a 100 pound calf. Well, I posted one... and you've remained dead quiet.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Jamie, honestly. You are how old? How may people do you talk to a day about bulls and cattle? How many heard visits do you make each year?  Your in my boat. We are not old enough to know enough. We have opinions sure. Fact is...........sue could be the most important person in the breed right now. Nobody networks like her and gets out and sees the cattle like she does. PERIOD. If this breed is to grow, it will need people like sue, r.n. reed. a@t, sneeds, Robert Shoup, JTM, Meadowlane,  etc, etc. Breed what you like and find the market where they fit.  Its our right and I hope we all make money. How many folks raise cattle in the USA anyways? Half of one percent is my guess or less. I personally like a heated discussion. It means we are getting somewhere. If folks think shorthorn folks argue, you need to do some research on angus. Keeneys Corner or 5barx chat forums will show you.

Gary Bob, I cant stop thinking about a certain bull in Ohio running with some Fancher cattle to produce some pretty sweet mongrels. Not to mention a golf day in Arkansas! aussie, bring your clubs! You can use mine if you dont have any. Rental fee is a beer.

Brock I am old enough to know when someone is a bully.  What I like, what I believe is needed which ironically has usually had a lot of agreement and with my latest thought on pelvic measurements and maternal calving ease especially.  As for Sue she might be a great person "in real life" but she has gone about everything the wrong way.  I have received some interesting private messages as of late from this bully and in all honesty I have no problem standing up and saying hello why are you attacking me? At what point have I publicly bashed any of her program? I actually spent a lot of time listing both Captain Obvious and 329 as CE options I found at least 4 times where I listed both and 8 times I mentioned 329. Ironically sue consistently puts words in my mouth, read my posts read hers I can't always figure out where she is coming from maybe you can fill in the blanks???

Moreover this latest public attack made by sue basically publicly called me out for bashing her program.  As mentioned before I think you should really look through all of my previous posts, I see nothing negative about sues program aside from the CE point I made earlier after she accused me of said bashing, and even then I pointed out he is a proven bull and his pedigree has nothing to do with the calves he himself is producing.  Its the wonderful world of genetics.

Sue had not bothered becoming interested in me until I posted the pasture pictures with Diamond Prophecy 21P and some other cattle which triggered the first threatening Private Message.  SO Brock she may be a nice person to you, but she is proving herself to be an insecure woman who jumps to conclusions with no justifiable cause.  I like my cattle, they make me happy I posted pictures not to sell but to brag its what girls do.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

TGCC, you asked to be shown pics of a heifer that could have a 100 pound calf. Well, I posted one... and you've remained dead quiet.

You need to re read this. I said thanks for all the input a couple times. What else should I say? I asked for examples and I got them. Still doesnt convince me it is something I want to move to.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

sue is a bully? Sorry, I have dealt with plenty of bullies. She is not one of them.  I guess I will just let it go. I will agree to respectfully disagree.


Anyway, on the 100+ lb calves TDU. It is possible, I see this. But is it practical? Should we just start breeding cattle to have huge calves? Seriously. Was your calves ahead of the rest of their contemporary group at weaning? at a year? Just curious.